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UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

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Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#71

Post by simonw »

wolf550e wrote: post #57
madaxe_again wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget about "the muslim problem" and the "international islamic conspiracy". I'm sorry to Godwin the thread, but it's pertinent. The push on "british values" (nationalism) and "preventing non-violent extremism" (such doublespeak) and "combatting islam" is fucking terrifying to anyone even vaguely familiar with the events that preceded the holocaust and the second world war. The surveillance state we find ourse…

Why would you think the UK would round up and execute its Muslim citizens? And if nothing like this has any chance of occurring, just finding out who is in contact with real terrorists and who isn't seems useful, whether they're Muslim terrorists or Breivik. It is of course vitally important that information gathered for this purpose cannot be used for commercial or political ends, which is the hard part (maybe impos…

How do you define a "real terrorist"?

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#72

Post by collyw »

peterlawest wrote: post #32
aluhut wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these benefits?

I believe it helps ensure security. I don't believe they'd bother doing it if it didn't. I think you're a bit arrogant for assuming they give a fuck what you write to your girlfriend on iMessages. I know you probably disagree with that, but this is my point - not everyone agrees that surveillance is bad. And I'm not alone - I think most people don't really care about surveillance. And this isn't a conspiracy - it's j…

>I believe it helps ensure security.

How many terrorist attacks have been prevented as a result of this illegal privacy invasion?

Is there any evidence of it ensuring security? I see none.

What leads you to believe that it ensures security?

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#73

Post by eevilspock »

tomp wrote: post #50
digitalengineer wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just now realized the double-speak of their name, the Guardian. I thought they guarded the public. Silly me.

What do you mean? Guardian is at the forefront of exposing the leaks and informing the public about the wrongdoings of the government!

He is being sarcastic. See his comment history.

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#74

Post by spodek »

rayiner wrote: post #62
madaxe_again wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget about "the muslim problem" and the "international islamic conspiracy". I'm sorry to Godwin the thread, but it's pertinent. The push on "british values" (nationalism) and "preventing non-violent extremism" (such doublespeak) and "combatting islam" is fucking terrifying to anyone even vaguely familiar with the events that preceded the holocaust and the second world war. The surveillance state we find ourse…

Not every cultural clash should be compared to the Holocaust. There are plenty of historical examples of societies that got eaten from within when they couldn't maintain their culture in the face of aggressive foreign ones.

Germany in the 30s wasn't the Holocaust. The Holocaust emerged from it. Had people known where things would go, maybe they could have stopped it.

Today we have history to tell us where things could go. If we don't allow comparisons to the early stages, might we unwittingly make later stages more likely?

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#75

Post by quasque »

rayiner wrote: post #62
madaxe_again wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget about "the muslim problem" and the "international islamic conspiracy". I'm sorry to Godwin the thread, but it's pertinent. The push on "british values" (nationalism) and "preventing non-violent extremism" (such doublespeak) and "combatting islam" is fucking terrifying to anyone even vaguely familiar with the events that preceded the holocaust and the second world war. The surveillance state we find ourse…

Not every cultural clash should be compared to the Holocaust. There are plenty of historical examples of societies that got eaten from within when they couldn't maintain their culture in the face of aggressive foreign ones.

Could you please elaborate on some examples of this?

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#76

Post by fit2rule »

madaxe_again wrote: post #20
Nursie wrote: post #7

The political silence on this issue is indeed deafening. As was the press silence (other than the Guardian). The press in this country are far more interested in reality tv, political infighting, fanning flames about 'immigrants' and what the royals are up to. And I suspect it's because most of the public don't care either. There are people who would like privacy, who think that GCHQ should be accountable and then th…

Don't forget about "the muslim problem" and the "international islamic conspiracy". I'm sorry to Godwin the thread, but it's pertinent. The push on "british values" (nationalism) and "preventing non-violent extremism" (such doublespeak) and "combatting islam" is fucking terrifying to anyone even vaguely familiar with the events that preceded the holocaust and the second world war. The surveillance state we find ourse…

The biggest problem in the UK is: groupthink. The national identity is oriented around just how conformant and pliable an individual is, in relation to their peers, and thinking what everyone else thinks is, fundamentally, at the core of what it means to be an Englishman. Don't rock the boat, don't go outside the boundaries of 'acceptable society', and so on.

Well, I'm sorry to say, but you English deserve your oppression. It will be a long road travelled hard before the UK is anywhere near the free, spirited nation it claims itself to be. I can only imagine there are new breeds of dissidents in the British isles, and I can only hope they rise some day to shock British culture out of its utterly self-righteous stupor.

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#77

Post by Nursie »

peterlawest wrote: post #24
Nursie wrote: post #7

The political silence on this issue is indeed deafening. As was the press silence (other than the Guardian). The press in this country are far more interested in reality tv, political infighting, fanning flames about 'immigrants' and what the royals are up to. And I suspect it's because most of the public don't care either. There are people who would like privacy, who think that GCHQ should be accountable and then th…

I consider myself an educated, well-informed person, and I have no problem whatsoever with government surveillance. Like anything, it can be abused, but I don't think that outweighs the benefits. I think it's sad that it makes you 'angry' that some people simply disagree with you. We have a democracy, and obviously only a minority consider this to be an issue of concern. If you have a problem with it, stand for elect…

>> I consider myself an educated, well-informed person, and I have no problem whatsoever with government surveillance. Like anything, it can be abused, but I don't think that outweighs the benefits.

You have cared enough to actually think about it and are prepared to engage in debate. Congrats, you are more interested/intelligent than 90% of the population.

>> I think it's sad that it makes you 'angry' that some people simply disagree with you.

No, I'm angry that most people don't care enough or aren't smart enough to think about it, and that's the majority, and so nothing can be done. Your assertion that I'm angry that people disagree with me is incorrect and patronising.

>> We have a democracy, and obviously only a minority consider this to be an issue of concern.

Our democracy is incredibly weak, it's arguable we even live under a democracy when we have secret trials and secret laws.

>> If you have a problem with it, stand for election.

That's a guaranteed way to waste time and money while achieving nothing.

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#78

Post by ZenPro »

Disclaimer : I worked as an intelligence analyst.

1. I am not in favour of widespread, unaccountable surveillance of UK citizens.

2. During my time we disrupted a number of exceptionally serious terrorist operations.[1] [2] are public knowledge and there are a few others that are not open source at this time.

3. Neither I, nor any of my colleagues, were instructed to keep any files on individuals to be used as political leverage or "for dirt" at a later stage.

That is really all I can add. I am not in favour of how far the needle has swung but but anyone not involved in the Intelligence Community is just simply fumbling around in the dark trying to say what does and what does not happen.

The threat from Qutbism Islamic Fundamentalism (Wahhabi/Salafist inspired terrorism) is real and intelligence organisations work constantly to prevent attacks.

If the threat warrants the level of perceived intrusion...I don't know. That is difficult to judge. Each citizens attitude to risk is different.

The HN crowd are technologically-savvy, critical thinkers but our law enforcement and intelligence agencies also have a mandate to protect the elderly, the young and the incapacitated. Do you think my grandmother gives a fuck about your outrage at having your email read?

All she cares about is that we don't return to the time of consistent bombing on the streets that plagued the troubles.

In short; it's not all about you, your vote is worth exactly one other vote.

[1]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/9...

[2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_plot_to_behead_a_British_M...

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#79

Post by ZenPro »

Disclaimer : I worked as an intelligence analyst.

1. I am not in favour of widespread, unaccountable surveillance of UK citizens.

2. During my time we disrupted a number of exceptionally serious terrorist operations.[1] [2] are public knowledge and there are a few others that are not open source at this time.

3. Neither I, nor any of my colleagues, were instructed to keep any files on individuals to be used as political leverage or "for dirt" at a later stage.

That is really all I can add. I am not in favour of how far the needle has swung but but anyone not involved in the Intelligence Community is just simply fumbling around in the dark trying to say what does and what does not happen.

The threat from Qutbism Islamic Fundamentalism (Wahhabi/Salafist inspired terrorism) is real and intelligence organisations work constantly to prevent attacks.

If the threat warrants the level of perceived intrusion...I don't know. That is difficult to judge. Each citizens attitude to risk is different.

The HN crowd are technologically-savvy, critical thinkers but our law enforcement and intelligence agencies also have a mandate to protect the elderly, the young and the incapacitated. Do you think my grandmother gives a fuck about your outrage at having your email read?

All she cares about is that we don't return to the time of consistent bombing on the streets that plagued the troubles.

In short; it's not all about you, your vote is worth exactly one other vote.

[1]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/9...

[2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_plot_to_behead_a_British_M...

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#80

Post by fit2rule »

eevilspock wrote: post #70
pjc50 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is certainly a slippery slope, but I think we need to recognise that there exist at least some organisations acting under the "Islamic" banner that are extraordinarily dangerous. 'ISIS' and 'Boko Haram' are the two most recent that come to mind. They already have a track record of mass execution of their enemies.

There is also an organization operating under the "Democracy" banner that is extremely dangerous. Extremely dangerous to democracy, which is the thing we have to protect us from, amongst many other things, mass executions by the State.

True that. I rate the UK Military-Industrial complex as a far more dangerous threat to free, open society. The English already have their extremist-enforced laws - its called the Official Secrets Act. If only folks would realize: all the things they're afraid "Islam" will do to them, have already been done in the name of "British safety".
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