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UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

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Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#51
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these benefits?

I believe it helps ensure security. I don't believe they'd bother doing it if it didn't. I think you're a bit arrogant for assuming they give a fuck what you write to your girlfriend on iMessages. I know you probably disagree with that, but this is my point - not everyone agrees that surveillance is bad. And I'm not alone - I think most people don't really care about surveillance. And this isn't a conspiracy - it's j…

I think you're a bit arrogant for assuming they give a fuck what you write to your girlfriend on iMessages.

This is absolutely not why people object to pervasive surveillance. The democracy that you harp on about above as the justification for your position is fundamentally incompatible with pervasive surveillance and secret trials.

The problem is not whether they can see pictures of my cats on twitter or imessages to my girlfriend, it's that with pervasive and universal surveillance of our communications which GCHQ is engaged in (collect it all, mastering the internet), those in power would become almost omniscient and able to manipulate our markets, our economy, our politicians, our judges and every other branch of our society. This activity is currently not significantly limited by law, but only by technical ability, which is fast changing. For example all SMS messages in the UK are stored, and all internet traffic crossing the kingdom (which is almost all of it) for as long as possible (Tempora), probably some phone calls too. We also don't even know who they share it with - probably the NSA given their subsidiary relationship. In the wrong hands, this would be a terrible weapon, and even in the right hands, it's likely to pervert those given the power.

If you had access to the private emails of judges, lawyers, accountants, politicians, in retrospect and forever it would be incredibly easy to make and break careers and manipulate everyone else in the country to bend them to your will. Now imagine this power in the hands of a select few, and the rise to power of someone ruthless enough to use it for their own ends. Perhaps initially they'd simply nudge a referendum on independence, or a presidential election by releasing inconvenient emails at the right moment, maybe they'd ensure their continued funding with blackmail (has this already happened, would we ever know?), maybe they'll decide they could run this place better after all - again, we wouldn't even know our democracy had been entirely subverted until it was too late.

IMO the time to oppose this sort of surveillance is now - surveillance should be one-off and controlled by independent judges on a case by case basis, not pervasive and eternal.

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#52
post #38
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have a democracy, and obviously only a minority consider this to be an issue of concern. > > If you have a problem with it, stand for election. There must be a name for this kind of fallacy.

Is it really a fallacy? Part of democracy is accepting that you don't necessarily agree with everyone about everything, and you have to compromise.

Say you were born in 1850, but had the understanding about race and slavery that you do now. Slavery makes you angry (I'm assuming here) and you make an impassioned post about the evils of slavery. In reply you get, "We have a democracy, and obviously only a minority consider this to be an issue of concern."

Is it "sad that it makes you 'angry' that some people simply disagree with you"? Is it ok to dismiss your anger because you don't "stand for election"?

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#53
post #7

The political silence on this issue is indeed deafening. As was the press silence (other than the Guardian). The press in this country are far more interested in reality tv, political infighting, fanning flames about 'immigrants' and what the royals are up to. And I suspect it's because most of the public don't care either. There are people who would like privacy, who think that GCHQ should be accountable and then th…

I consider myself an educated, well-informed person, and I have no problem whatsoever with government surveillance. Like anything, it can be abused, but I don't think that outweighs the benefits. I think it's sad that it makes you 'angry' that some people simply disagree with you. We have a democracy, and obviously only a minority consider this to be an issue of concern. If you have a problem with it, stand for elect…

> We have a democracy, and obviously only a minority consider this to be an issue of concern.

I think those are separate things -- being in a democracy means the majority decide what happens; it doesn't mean that the majority are well-informed rational deciders of objective truth.

If the government were kicking puppies for entertainment, and nobody knew about it, then the majority wouldn't use their democratic powers to vote against that either :P

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget about "the muslim problem" and the "international islamic conspiracy". I'm sorry to Godwin the thread, but it's pertinent. The push on "british values" (nationalism) and "preventing non-violent extremism" (such doublespeak) and "combatting islam" is fucking terrifying to anyone even vaguely familiar with the events that preceded the holocaust and the second world war. The surveillance state we find ourse…

I suspect something much more mundane. Politicians love to shout about their successes. Only, this government hasn't really got any to shout about, so they're falling back to the old standby that all governments do in situations like this. Wave the flag and be proud to be British.

Sort of. The problem that the mainstream political parties have right now is that right-wing sentiment just scored high in the elections. They need a little bit of sabre-rattling and flag-waving to convince those on the left-most fringe of the newly-empowered right to come back towards the centre, and the only way they can do that is through winning the stupid, populist vote on simple issues again.

That of course, coupled with the lack of real achievement from the current government, the ongoing and incredibly unpopular austerity cuts, and a long and drawn-out recovery that doesn't seem to be materialising for most people means that any way to make political hay right now needs to be grasped.

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#55
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what else to say apart from that I've seen the same coverage as you, and I'm not bothered by it. I'm sorry that this seems to infuriate you people so much, but that's my opinion. If I'm happy with it, I'm happy with it. So are many people. Your indignation isn't going to going to change my mind, or many other people's minds.

> I don't know what else to say apart from that I've seen the same coverage as you, and I'm not bothered by it. Sure, but then again the majority of Southerners weren't bothered by the slavery or the lynchings either. It took a civil war to make them change their ways. I mean, if we are to put "not bothered" as some kind of argument.

Sadly, even 100 years after the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation, and 200 years after the Declaration that "all men are created equal", we had huge resistance to the much belated civil rights acts of the 60's.

Yes, peterlawest is entirely right. Our indignation isn't going to going to change his mind, or that of many others like him.

"People don't change their minds. They die, and are replaced by people with different opinions" -- Arturo Albergati, via Paul Graham (http://www.paulgraham.com/quo.html)

"Science progresses one funeral at a time." -- Max Planck

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it helps ensure security. I don't believe they'd bother doing it if it didn't. I think you're a bit arrogant for assuming they give a fuck what you write to your girlfriend on iMessages. I know you probably disagree with that, but this is my point - not everyone agrees that surveillance is bad. And I'm not alone - I think most people don't really care about surveillance. And this isn't a conspiracy - it's j…

I think you're a bit arrogant for assuming they give a fuck what you write to your girlfriend on iMessages. This is absolutely not why people object to pervasive surveillance. The democracy that you harp on about above as the justification for your position is fundamentally incompatible with pervasive surveillance and secret trials. The problem is not whether they can see pictures of my cats on twitter or imessages t…

You don't even need to have access to the content of the mail, the meta data are more than enough to find out if you've called a known drug dealer, went to an abortion clinic, used an escort service... It is more than enough to end a career or silence a critic.

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#57
post #7

The political silence on this issue is indeed deafening. As was the press silence (other than the Guardian). The press in this country are far more interested in reality tv, political infighting, fanning flames about 'immigrants' and what the royals are up to. And I suspect it's because most of the public don't care either. There are people who would like privacy, who think that GCHQ should be accountable and then th…

Don't forget about "the muslim problem" and the "international islamic conspiracy". I'm sorry to Godwin the thread, but it's pertinent. The push on "british values" (nationalism) and "preventing non-violent extremism" (such doublespeak) and "combatting islam" is fucking terrifying to anyone even vaguely familiar with the events that preceded the holocaust and the second world war. The surveillance state we find ourse…

Why would you think the UK would round up and execute its Muslim citizens? And if nothing like this has any chance of occurring, just finding out who is in contact with real terrorists and who isn't seems useful, whether they're Muslim terrorists or Breivik. It is of course vitally important that information gathered for this purpose cannot be used for commercial or political ends, which is the hard part (maybe impossible).

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect something much more mundane. Politicians love to shout about their successes. Only, this government hasn't really got any to shout about, so they're falling back to the old standby that all governments do in situations like this. Wave the flag and be proud to be British.

Sort of. The problem that the mainstream political parties have right now is that right-wing sentiment just scored high in the elections. They need a little bit of sabre-rattling and flag-waving to convince those on the left-most fringe of the newly-empowered right to come back towards the centre, and the only way they can do that is through winning the stupid, populist vote on simple issues again. That of course, co…

The worrying part is : what happens in 10 years if the sabre-rattling was not enough? What is the next step? (And this is not specific to UK but most European countries)

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#59
post #7

The political silence on this issue is indeed deafening. As was the press silence (other than the Guardian). The press in this country are far more interested in reality tv, political infighting, fanning flames about 'immigrants' and what the royals are up to. And I suspect it's because most of the public don't care either. There are people who would like privacy, who think that GCHQ should be accountable and then th…

Further cause for anger: In a democracy the people own the government, not the other way around. Yet our government can spy on us and lie about it without consequence, while it is treasonous for the people to be given intel on our own government's actions (e.g. Edward Snowden)!

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* Yet. As long as people such as peterlawest (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7903705) continue to be the majority.

Re: UK intelligence forced to reveal secret policy for mass surveillance

#60
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider myself an educated, well-informed person, and I have no problem whatsoever with government surveillance. Like anything, it can be abused, but I don't think that outweighs the benefits. I think it's sad that it makes you 'angry' that some people simply disagree with you. We have a democracy, and obviously only a minority consider this to be an issue of concern. If you have a problem with it, stand for elect…

> I consider myself an educated, well-informed person, and I have no problem whatsoever with government surveillance Well, I don't consider that stance well-informed. Surely its not informed of the tons of abuses of surveillance from "democratic" governments. And its also not informed of thousands of people rotting in jail, targeted by the police, tortured etc. Perhaps people who think that way, believe that all gove…

nunny state

No, that's Ireland (where the investigation of a mass grave of children in a nunnery is failing to get off the ground)

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