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Founder Depression

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: Founder Depression

#121

Post by Swizec »

EvanMiller wrote: post #87

Dig deeper, Sam. Achievement-oriented people are given to depression both when they fail and when they succeed. If your identity is tied up in your work, then you feel bad about yourself when work isn't going well. That's obvious, and that's the message of this blog post. The implicit message is that you're depressed because you're not succeeding, so get your shit together and succeed and be happy like everyone else.…

As one of those achievers[1] I think it's even worse than you say. I have pretty much made peace with the fact that I am going to be fundamentally miserable for most if not all of my life.

The reason why that is, is because even though I never do things just because others want me to do them[2], I am still very much driven by success and achievement. Not because society compels me to achieve, but because there is an internal drive that just will not shut up. Kundera explained it well in Lightness of Being - there is an inner voice that says you have to. You must. Even though you know full well following this path does not make you happy, moving away from that voice makes you even more miserable. Just because you're not following your talents/gifts[3].

When it comes to success vs. failure. Succeeding brings with it doubts in terms of whether you're succeeding rapidly enough, whether there's more you could be doing, whether your goals are high enough. When you're failing, you're failing and failing never feels good.

And there's nothing that even compares to the emptiness that comes when you achieve a goal. It's soul crushing. All that work and now you're done ... what can you possibly do with your life now? What else is there? What's the next step? If I could achieve this goal, was it even lofty enough?

In the end, I've learned to simply manage my depression and live with it.

[1] I think I fall in the camp, it's hard to say, I've never achieved much that the outside world would laud me for, but I tend to behave like achievers do and have been obsessed with success/achievement ever since I can remember

[2] ask anyone, I am impossible to motivate externally. Beating me with a stick until I do what you ask would probably work eventually, but that's a tad severe.

[3] great Oglaf comic on the topic of talents/gifts wanting to be used: http://oglaf.com/gifted/

Re: Founder Depression

#122

Post by simonsarris »

EvanMiller wrote: post #87

Dig deeper, Sam. Achievement-oriented people are given to depression both when they fail and when they succeed. If your identity is tied up in your work, then you feel bad about yourself when work isn't going well. That's obvious, and that's the message of this blog post. The implicit message is that you're depressed because you're not succeeding, so get your shit together and succeed and be happy like everyone else.…

I think you're spot on with your premise (not so sure about your conclusion), and I've certainly heard this sentiment before:

"Success and failure are both difficult to endure. Along with success come drugs, divorce, fornication, bullying, travel, meditation, medication, depression, neurosis and suicide. With failure comes failure."

-Joseph Heller (author of Catch 22)

Re: Founder Depression

#123

Post by mrev19 »

Try dedicating your life to music its freakin brutal. Write some songs and go sing em in a public forum, thats some serious vulnerability. Not saying its tougher than being a founder, but no way the opposite is true. Anyway my point is that these days many people who are attracted to being founders tend to be shocked by the costs because they don't have the natural temperament to sharply veer from the path of established norms. Many don't believe in something greater than themselves or money which would allow them to suffer the pain as a cost of doing business. This is a given in the arts. Its like the marines, pain is part of the practice.

Re: Founder Depression

#124

Post by savrajsingh »

npizzolato wrote: post #103
pbiggar wrote: post #11

> You’ll also be surprised how much you find other founders are willing to listen. This is super important. Non-founders often will not get it, in my experience. If you haven't started a company, you often will not have experienced the intense ups and downs, and just how fucked everything can be, even when you pour your life and soul into it, and that there really can be a light on the other side of the tunnel. One b…

>Non-founders often will not get it, in my experience. This is the kind of self important nonsense I would expect from a high schooler. Sorry, but starting a company is not the only way to feel intense ups and downs, or to put your heart into something only to be disappointed. Maybe thinking that you're problems are completely unique is contributing to the problem. There are lots of other people with their own proble…

Non-founders are like "oh just sell to google," so no, they don't understand :/

Re: Founder Depression

#125

Post by _sentient »

mikeleeorg wrote: post #112

When I first became a manager at a large corporation, I often felt stressed out and alone. So a year into it, I created an informal "support group" of other new managers. We'd trade stories, tips, and beers. This was nowhere near the pressure of founding a company, but I took that experience and created an informal support group of founders amongst my colleagues too. It didn't last unfortunately, but I later got into…

I believe http://7cupsoftea.com may be what you're looking for.

Re: Founder Depression

#126

Post by vasilipupkin »

logicallee wrote: post #55

You can't afford to follow this advice. Saying you're crushing it is part of your 24/7 job description. There is a story of the founder who had just put a round together with a VC. Then, privately, the founder confided to a mutual friend, over dinner, about some of the difficulties. Result? The friend told the VC, the VC pulled out, and cited this conversation, saying that it was because his mutual friend said the co…

1) plural of anecdote is not data 2) that VC was probably looking for an excuse to pull out, would have pulled out anyway for some other bullshit reason

Re: Founder Depression

#128

Post by nostrademons »

Swizec wrote: post #121
EvanMiller wrote: post #87

Dig deeper, Sam. Achievement-oriented people are given to depression both when they fail and when they succeed. If your identity is tied up in your work, then you feel bad about yourself when work isn't going well. That's obvious, and that's the message of this blog post. The implicit message is that you're depressed because you're not succeeding, so get your shit together and succeed and be happy like everyone else.…

As one of those achievers[1] I think it's even worse than you say. I have pretty much made peace with the fact that I am going to be fundamentally miserable for most if not all of my life. The reason why that is, is because even though I never do things just because others want me to do them[2], I am still very much driven by success and achievement. Not because society compels me to achieve, but because there is an…

I'm curious - could you reframe "following your gifts" as an opportunity instead of an obligation?

I also feel that same drive where I get restless when I feel my talents are being wasted. I think a lot of people do. But when my talents are actually being used, I don't feel miserable or unhappy, but rather content. I think this may be because I don't think in terms of "Am I accomplishing everything I set out to do? Have I made enough of a mark on the world?", but rather in terms of "Am I doing the right things? Am I following the path that will maximize my contributions to the world, given the information I have available?" (Okay, admittedly I've fallen into thinking like the former on occasion, and I tend to become miserably neurotic when I do. But I've worked pretty hard to try and view things in the latter light.)

The former puts the locus of control on the outside world, where you feel responsible for the effects of your actions, even if those effects are outside your control. The latter puts the locus of control on yourself, about your choices. In theory (and in my experience), success follows as a consequence of doing the right things, not as a cause.

And then when I find that something is preventing me from doing the right thing, I ask what it is. Very often, it's myself, and I have some internal fear I need to face and get over. Sometimes, it's someone else, in which case it's time to cut that person or organization out of my life.

Re: Founder Depression

#129

Post by niels_olson »

simonsarris wrote: post #122
EvanMiller wrote: post #87

Dig deeper, Sam. Achievement-oriented people are given to depression both when they fail and when they succeed. If your identity is tied up in your work, then you feel bad about yourself when work isn't going well. That's obvious, and that's the message of this blog post. The implicit message is that you're depressed because you're not succeeding, so get your shit together and succeed and be happy like everyone else.…

I think you're spot on with your premise (not so sure about your conclusion), and I've certainly heard this sentiment before: "Success and failure are both difficult to endure. Along with success come drugs, divorce, fornication, bullying, travel, meditation, medication, depression, neurosis and suicide. With failure comes failure." -Joseph Heller (author of Catch 22)

He's not spot on. Depression is depression. And the answer is to talk to somebody. That's actually the cold hard evidence-based answer. Talk. To somebody.
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