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Finding the perfect house using open data

dealloc.me

81–90 of 94 posts

Re: Finding the perfect house using open data

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the real estate test/license is so easy, I've always wondered if savy buyers could "become real estate agents" and then show themselves properties? As far as I'm concerned the only value agents provide is unlocking doors at houses you want to view. (Source: I've bought 3 houses with three different agents.) Feel free to email me if you want to chat, I'm sure there are some great start up ideas in the space.

Getting a license is just the first step; you have to associate yourself with a brokerage to do the things agents do, and there's a cost to that. If your agents haven't done anything for you but unlock doors, then you haven't had good agents. Like any other profession, there's a huge range in quality and competence, and finding a good agent requires some research and probably recommendations from past clients.

No, they were highly recommended, and generally knew a lot about the areas.

But for a buyer wanting to do his own research, and having lived in the area for a long time, they simply couldn't add any value besides unlocking doors, and filling out a stock form to make offers.

Re: Finding the perfect house using open data

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, each state sets it's own guidelines for licensing Realtors and the general rules for how they run their business. In New Jersey, commissions are typically 5% to 6%, depending on the level of service the agent representing the seller performs. My wife charges 6%, and spends a lot of her own money on cleaning the house, moving extraneous furnishings out to de-clutter the house, moving her own furnishings in…

Thanks for the additional detail. A few random thoughts which struck me as I read through: - it's hard to believe it's 3-5 months' work to sell a home (unless you mean duration rather than effort) - why does the 'brokerage' get so much? What value do they add, or is it just like taxi medallions? - yes, we all have to pay taxes - why do the no-frills brokers no longer exist? I've read elsewhere that full-service agent…

I do mean duration, from getting the listing to closing. It's not 9-5 work every day during that time, but there are some days that are fully dedicated to that one listing and some time spent nearly every day paying attention to it. The cognitive load of daily attention to each client and the scheduling necessary for those longer days means that an agent can only manage a handful of clients at the same time. That's the opportunity cost inherent in each client, and why agents need to earn as much as they can from each one.

The brokerage gets a big chunk because they're running an office for all of the agents: they need to rent property (usually in a prime location), build out the office space, and pay all of the costs for running that space. My wife's office has grown from 30 agents to over 100 in the past 4 years or so, and has needed to take over two neighboring spaces in the building it occupies.

Different brokerages have different policies; some charge a fixed monthly fee and take a lower cut of commissions, some charge no monthly fee and take a bigger cut of commissions. Most have a 'cap' on the brokerages cut, so that if you do well in the spring and pay out your cap, the brokerage won't take any cut from you for the rest of the year.

Taxes: yes, we all do pay taxes, but most of us only think about our after-tax net income rather than our pre-tax gross income, because the taxes come out before any money goes into our pockets. So people forget that those commissions are gross rather than net when they compare what the agent is getting to their own earnings.

I think the no-frills brokers don't exist anymore because their service was awful. "You get what you pay for" may not always work for full-rate agents because they may not be very good, but "You're not getting what you don't pay for" definitely applies to the no-frills agents.

A full-service buyers agent gets paid out of the commission that the seller pays to the listing agent. If the listing agent is a no-frills discount agent charging 2%, then the full-service agent might get 1% rather than the 3% they would otherwise get. They have fixed costs that aren't covered by that rate, and can't afford to provide their buyers with the level service they want to provide for those homes. But there's more to it than the money: shepherding a deal through from offer to closing requires a lot of work and a lot of coordination between the agents, and the discount agents just don't care to spend any time on that. It's extremely frustrating for the full-service agent to work with a discount agent who's not paying attention, and that causes a higher risk of the deal falling through or having long delays which can impact the buyer's sale of the home they're moving out of. So guiding buyers away from homes listed by discount agents can be in their best interest. (For Sale By Owner homes are also higher risk, often worse, for the same reasons.)

Realtors need licensing because there are strict laws and ethical codes that they must adhere to; there is a high risk of being sued when there is any hint of improper behavior. Agents sue each other, agents sue brokerages, brokerages sue each other, and buyers and sellers sue everyone. The licensing is there to make sure agents know what all of the rules are and the importance of following them. (By the way, insurance for all of this litigation is one of the big fixed costs for being an agent.)

Re: Finding the perfect house using open data

#83
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, each state sets it's own guidelines for licensing Realtors and the general rules for how they run their business. In New Jersey, commissions are typically 5% to 6%, depending on the level of service the agent representing the seller performs. My wife charges 6%, and spends a lot of her own money on cleaning the house, moving extraneous furnishings out to de-clutter the house, moving her own furnishings in…

> There are strict rules regarding this situation to avoid conflicts of interest, btw. And those rules don't work in the slightest. Both agents have incentive to increase the cost of the house, but really the buyers agent should help reduce that cost. Additionally both agents have incentive to get the deal done, even if it's not financially right (for either party) so they'll tell the seller to reduce the price, and…

Increasing the cost of the house works against the agents too, because of the banks. There are two gates that have to be passed through: the buyers must be pre-approved for a mortgage that is sufficient to pay for the house, and the bank will send an inspector to the house to value it before approving the final mortgage.

A seller won't accept an offer from a buyer that doesn't have evidence that they can afford what they're offering. The buyer's agent wants the offer to be accepted, so they won't let the buyer offer more than they're pre-approved for (and often somewhat less, to reduce risks that the deal will break down before closing.)

Once the offer is accepted, the bank inspection has to happen, and if the bank determines that the house is not worth as much as the buyer offered, the deal will fall through and neither agent gets paid. So, both agents have an incentive to keep the cost below what they think the bank valuation will be.

So it's really the bank that's in control of property values, not the agents. In a housing bubble that's a bad thing, because the bank is lenient in both pre-approvals and valuations, and agents incentives are to follow the bank upwards. But in the current climate when the banks are cautious and risk-averse I think the incentives are working well, because the banks and agents are countering each other.

As far as what the agents tell the buyer and seller about the price:

- If the house is sitting on the market and no one is making any offers, the price is too high. So yes, the sellers agent will tell the seller to reduce the price, because they want the seller to sell. (Getting the house to sell is the agent's job, after all.) Just sitting and waiting at the same price is bad for the seller, because it makes other agents and buyers think there's something wrong with the house if it has been sitting on the market for a long time with no offers.

- If a house is priced correctly, multiple buyers will want to buy it, and they'll all make offers. The buyer's agent knows that the seller will choose one of the higher offers (though price isn't the only factor), and they want their buyer's offer to be accepted (that's their job), so yes, they will tell the buyer to offer more. My wife will tell her buyers how many other buyers they're competing with that she knows about (agents can't discuss details, but can give vague impressions to help each other out), and that they should offer more than the list price but not so much that they would regret the amount afterwards. In other words "Offer what this house is worth to you, so that you won't wish you had offered more if you don't get it, and that you won't wish you had spent less if you do get it."

Re: Finding the perfect house using open data

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting a license is just the first step; you have to associate yourself with a brokerage to do the things agents do, and there's a cost to that. If your agents haven't done anything for you but unlock doors, then you haven't had good agents. Like any other profession, there's a huge range in quality and competence, and finding a good agent requires some research and probably recommendations from past clients.

No, they were highly recommended, and generally knew a lot about the areas. But for a buyer wanting to do his own research, and having lived in the area for a long time, they simply couldn't add any value besides unlocking doors, and filling out a stock form to make offers.

Didn't they do anything for you after the offers were made? Did you not hear from them again until the closing a few months later?

For what it's worth, I agree 100% with you when it comes to rental agents. They do almost nothing besides provide a listing in MLS. But buyer and seller agents should be doing a lot more.

Re: Finding the perfect house using open data

#85
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm married to a Realtor, so I've had plenty of direct access to the local MLS system, and also I've overheard many conversations between my wife and her clients about Zillow. From what I've seen and heard, Zillow's data isn't just delayed by a week; it can be years out of date, and grossly inaccurate as well. Both buyers and sellers are very mislead about property values based on Zillow because they see the last sal…

Folks here should check out http://patrick.net/ , run by a SF bay area programmer, for an opposing view on the necessity and desirability of Realtors(tm). In terms of the MLS, at least in California, which has the largest one, it's run by Realtors(tm) for Realtors(tm). The board members are Realtors(tm); so are the "34 REALTOR® Associations" that are the MLS's customers. You can see crmls.org for more details. In ter…

I recently sold my house on my own. We live in a hot metro area. I initially listed it just on Zillow and did an aggressive social media campaign. Within a week I had several offers.

My mistake initially was to try to attack both sides of the realtor(tm) mix: seller and buyer brokers. I was clearly taking the seller side out. But I was willing to work with buyers' brokers if they found me. But I wanted to twist the commission scheme, as a flat rate doesn't make much sense. (e.g., an incremental $100K is huge for me but very little for them.) So I tried to create a stairstep where if they came in below ask, the broker would get paid .5%, and if they were 100K above ask they would get 3.5%. Needless to say, this failed. I had many brokers tell me they would refuse to bring clients to see my place, DESPITE their fiduciary duty to do so.

In the end, I offered 2.5% commission to buyers brokers (the standard in my area). I also listed it on the MLS using a shady site where you can pay to $150 bucks to a broker to list it on the MLS. Finally, I scraped the websites of 3 major brokerages in my area and did a mailing list to 100 brokers with the subject line of ADDDRESS X, 2.5% Buyer Commission. (100 brokers in 4 square miles. Should tell you something.) Had a 60% open rate and a 50% clickthrough rate. Lots of appointments right away.

I endeded up getting 9 offers and having a 2 step auction. I of course netted out what I would have to pay to brokers, so folks without brokers had an automatic 2.5% advantage. I ended up selling without a broker on either side. 3 weeks from first listing on Zillow to contract signed.

So yes - it's definitely possible to work without brokers if you're willing to do a little work, you're confident in your pricing skills, and you're in a hot area. As I said to my wife, each individual showing we did saved us about $2K!

Re: Finding the perfect house using open data

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He had the financial incentive to not make that happen, namely to lock people onto IE/Windows and direct them out of AOL and into a 1990's MSN walled garden. If anything, Gates the futurist vs Gates the businessperson shows us that, regardless of what the pro-lassiez faire types say, most often corporations left unfettered don't product the best results, but only results that directly benefit themselves and that ofte…

Corporations left unfettered are no longer corporations. This isn't just semantics. An unfettered corporation no longer has the benefits of government either . I'm thinking of things like subsidies, added regulation that raises barriers of entry and limited liability. > regardless of what the pro-lassiez faire types say Not all pro laissez-faire types are strict utilitarians. Most that I know tend to appeal to ethics…

>Not all pro laissez-faire types are strict utilitarians. Most that I know tend to appeal to ethics in addition

Utilitarianism is actually an normative moral theory concerned with determining whether an action is right or wrong. Any strict utilitarian would dispute that ethics are in addition to their view rather than a core component :)

Re: Finding the perfect house using open data

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's anecdotal, but most realtors I have met actively dislike Trulia/Zillow/etc

I personally actively dislike Trulia/Zillow. More scams there than on Craigslist even.

Could you elaborate some of these scams?

Re: Finding the perfect house using open data

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they were highly recommended, and generally knew a lot about the areas. But for a buyer wanting to do his own research, and having lived in the area for a long time, they simply couldn't add any value besides unlocking doors, and filling out a stock form to make offers.

Didn't they do anything for you after the offers were made? Did you not hear from them again until the closing a few months later? For what it's worth, I agree 100% with you when it comes to rental agents. They do almost nothing besides provide a listing in MLS. But buyer and seller agents should be doing a lot more.

I found my own home inspector. They unlocked the door for him too :-)

They came to the closing and told jokes :-)

What else should they have done after the offer was accepted?

Re: Finding the perfect house using open data

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they were highly recommended, and generally knew a lot about the areas. But for a buyer wanting to do his own research, and having lived in the area for a long time, they simply couldn't add any value besides unlocking doors, and filling out a stock form to make offers.

Didn't they do anything for you after the offers were made? Did you not hear from them again until the closing a few months later? For what it's worth, I agree 100% with you when it comes to rental agents. They do almost nothing besides provide a listing in MLS. But buyer and seller agents should be doing a lot more.

Like , I did my own research, had my own spreadsheet of comps for the area, wrote my own personal offer letter to the seller, hired my own inspectors, and so on. The buyer's agent incorrectly said I didn't need to check the box saying as a condition of sale that the house have a working plumbing and sewage system; I did anyway and wrote it in, which saved me approximately $23,000 (the seller fixed it). Because I knew the market, we only looked at one house with this agent so his work was minimal.

About the only thing the buyer's agent did that was useful was cart away some household debris away in his truck after closing. It had been left behind in the garage. It probably would have cost me $40 to have someone do the same.

Re: Finding the perfect house using open data

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Close, except Estately gets access to MLS data too. (Founder & CEO here)

Do you guys have an API? I have a couple cool ideas for apps bit don't know where to get data?

Hi mrfusion, we unfortunately have strict licensing restrictions on our data. Sorry!
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