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iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

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Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#191

Post by chrj »

meepmorp wrote: post #168
elarkin wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without being too specific, you should assume that Large stores already do this. Any store claiming to have "in store wifi" is almost guaranteed to be tracking you through your mac address. The system that I'm familiar with only tracks where you're going. It didn't (as of a couple months ago) have any way of linking your mac back to a consumer profile.

I was in a shopping mall recently, where the free wifi required your name and an email address before letting you use it. Fuck that.

If you don't give your name or other identification, how would they hold you responsible if you abused the connection?

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#192

Post by nnnnni »

meepmorp wrote: post #168
elarkin wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without being too specific, you should assume that Large stores already do this. Any store claiming to have "in store wifi" is almost guaranteed to be tracking you through your mac address. The system that I'm familiar with only tracks where you're going. It didn't (as of a couple months ago) have any way of linking your mac back to a consumer profile.

I was in a shopping mall recently, where the free wifi required your name and an email address before letting you use it. Fuck that.

Hello, my name is Guy Incognito. My email address is gincog@example.com.

Unless it requires you to click a confirmation link or something similar to that, just use a fake address at one of the example.TLD domains.

If they DO require confirmation, use mailinator or a similar service.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#193

Post by nolite »

hubert3 wrote: post #177
Nikker wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now that the MACs are random does that really solve the problem? A probe request sends out the real MAC of the AP it's looking for as well as the AP ESSID. By using anyone of many translators you can get a map of each ESSID with GPS co-ordinates. While many people will be probing for Starbucks and McDonalds they will always have a unique probe for their own home AP. So now there is no "neat" way of using the MAC as a…

Your assumption is incorrect - Probe requests do not contain the MAC of the AP, only the SSID. Wifi clients usually only save the name and security type/PSK of previously joined networks. In many situations, the same SSID is broadcast by multiple different APs with different MAC addresses in the same area so it wouldn't make sense to remember a specific SSID/MAC pair. If the same client (iPhone) probes for a list of…

unless Apple also decided to stop sending out the SSID list..

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#194

Post by nolite »

zaroth wrote: post #174

I think this is a feature for stores implementing WiFi tracking systems, not a hindrance. If I own a store, I really want to understand traffic patterns. If I can do that without causing a privacy shitstorm, I think that's a benefit.

You can't understand patterns from random data. Am I missing something you're seeing?

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#195

Post by paulrov »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #109
_greim_ wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think on the general principle of privacy. But also, the idea that the more trackable you are, the more easily manipulated you are by marketers and advertisers. Free markets work better the more consumers are rational. Giving marketers deep psychological and behavioral insight increasingly enables them to circumvent rationality and "hack" consumers in various ways.

There's a flip side to this. Being less trackable means that any passive advertising or active marketing you do see is less tailored to your situation and needs. When I walk around I see many billboards advertising products for which I have no use (e.g. female hair care products). If tracking technology could replace those with things I actually might buy (even if male hair care products) then I would be a touch happ…

I don't look at them in the first place. By making them more targeted I'm more likely to notice them then be creeped out by the targeting thus making my life worse.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#196

Post by paulrov »

User9812 wrote: post #131
rahimnathwani wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a flip side to this. Being less trackable means that any passive advertising or active marketing you do see is less tailored to your situation and needs. When I walk around I see many billboards advertising products for which I have no use (e.g. female hair care products). If tracking technology could replace those with things I actually might buy (even if male hair care products) then I would be a touch happ…

Do you know what companies never do? They never ask. I see dating ads, cars advertisements, feminine healthcare products, insurance ads, etc. What do I want to see? Travel accessories, computers, hardware, games, tech gadgets, etc. I never see these ads. Why doesn't Google say, hey, you're going to see Adsense all over the internet, advertisements before videos on YouTube, etc. Would you like to select a few categori…

> I make my living off ad revenue, but ads are absolutely awful, irrelevant and too often malicious.

Sorry but that makes you the worst kind of person. You have no right to complain about the system at all when you're one of the organs keeping it alive.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#197

Post by moe »

userbinator wrote: post #134
brunnsbe wrote: post #6

If this becomes the trend (which in my opinon would be nice) it will become a big problem for companies that specialise in customer tracking e.g. for supermarkets and big department stores. Previously it was quite easy to track a customer, how long he or she spends time in the store, which floors he or she visits, etc. by putting up dummy WiFI-networks that the customers phones find by giving out their MAC-addresses.

It's disturbingly creepy to think that stores would even think of doing this, but on the other hand it's also an indication of how clueless the general population is about the amount of identifiable data they're unconsciously "leaking" through personal, (nearly) always-on devices. My laptop is setup with a random MAC precisely to prevent this sort of tracking. Interestingly, the unbranded Android phones I have (one l…

It's disturbingly creepy to think that stores would even think of doing this

Malls and stores have been doing this for years. See e.g. http://retailnext.net.

At least in europe a bunch of cities also deploy these trackers in public squares for commerce/tourist tracking.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#198

Post by userbinator »

simoncion wrote: post #176
jedberg wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm under the impression that every request is a different random MAC, until you connect to the wifi network.

I'm under the impression that most "mobile" WiFi-enabled devices will actively probe [0] for APs that they've been associated with in the past. It's the SSIDs and MACs of these APs that will be used to figure out who you are, despite your ever-changing client MAC address. [0] By the gods, this is such a stupid idea. Aren't beacons often sent at a 10Hz rate? Assuming that we've associated with a network that actually…

I think this is a great example of how security and privacy gets sacrificed for convenience -- everyone seems more concerned with how fast they can connect to the first open WiFi network they find when they're roaming than what info they're broadcasting, and software's behaviour and interface reflects that. I'd like finer control over what my device does, like

- whether to automatically connect to any networks

- whether to use active scanning (and if it's off by default, I should be able to force one); passive scanning is fine unless you need to connect to networks without SSID broadcast, since it's just listening. Probably saves a tiny bit of battery too.

- better management of SSID list; I find the design where items in the list appear/disappear dynamically while you're trying to manipulate it rather irritating to use. I would prefer if there was an option to control whether the list gets updated, so it will stop accumulating useless networks. Finally, one for iOS (and Windows 8, which has regressed in this area): make it possible to forget and/or otherwise manage networks that are not in range.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#199

Post by thefreeman »

hubert3 wrote: post #177
Nikker wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now that the MACs are random does that really solve the problem? A probe request sends out the real MAC of the AP it's looking for as well as the AP ESSID. By using anyone of many translators you can get a map of each ESSID with GPS co-ordinates. While many people will be probing for Starbucks and McDonalds they will always have a unique probe for their own home AP. So now there is no "neat" way of using the MAC as a…

Your assumption is incorrect - Probe requests do not contain the MAC of the AP, only the SSID. Wifi clients usually only save the name and security type/PSK of previously joined networks. In many situations, the same SSID is broadcast by multiple different APs with different MAC addresses in the same area so it wouldn't make sense to remember a specific SSID/MAC pair. If the same client (iPhone) probes for a list of…

each individual probe request will be coming from a randomized MAC, so there shouldn't be any "list" of SSIDs to compare.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#200

Post by jackcarter »

nolite wrote: post #194
zaroth wrote: post #174

I think this is a feature for stores implementing WiFi tracking systems, not a hindrance. If I own a store, I really want to understand traffic patterns. If I can do that without causing a privacy shitstorm, I think that's a benefit.

You can't understand patterns from random data. Am I missing something you're seeing?

They can still understand when anonymous shoppers arrive and when they leave. However, I think zaroth is underestimating how much more useful it is to track an individual shopper's visits over time.
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