Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 264 posts

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#171

Post by tks2103 »

tks2103 wrote: post #156
userbinator wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's disturbingly creepy to think that stores would even think of doing this, but on the other hand it's also an indication of how clueless the general population is about the amount of identifiable data they're unconsciously "leaking" through personal, (nearly) always-on devices. My laptop is setup with a random MAC precisely to prevent this sort of tracking. Interestingly, the unbranded Android phones I have (one l…

It's pretty reasonable to expect a store would think of tracking a customer's path through the store. Websites do that all the time. In addition, if we find a good way to provide information to the store owner about how his or her store is being browsed and used, it is likely that stores will provide better shopping experiences.

Explain the downvote?

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#172

Post by jedberg »

Nikker wrote: post #154
userbinator wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's disturbingly creepy to think that stores would even think of doing this, but on the other hand it's also an indication of how clueless the general population is about the amount of identifiable data they're unconsciously "leaking" through personal, (nearly) always-on devices. My laptop is setup with a random MAC precisely to prevent this sort of tracking. Interestingly, the unbranded Android phones I have (one l…

Now that the MACs are random does that really solve the problem? A probe request sends out the real MAC of the AP it's looking for as well as the AP ESSID. By using anyone of many translators you can get a map of each ESSID with GPS co-ordinates. While many people will be probing for Starbucks and McDonalds they will always have a unique probe for their own home AP. So now there is no "neat" way of using the MAC as a…

I'm under the impression that every request is a different random MAC, until you connect to the wifi network.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#173

Post by ertdfgcb »

baddox wrote: post #164
_greim_ wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think on the general principle of privacy. But also, the idea that the more trackable you are, the more easily manipulated you are by marketers and advertisers. Free markets work better the more consumers are rational. Giving marketers deep psychological and behavioral insight increasingly enables them to circumvent rationality and "hack" consumers in various ways.

What's bad or irrational about being manipulated by marketers and advertisers? I don't see how buying something because some marketing convinced you of its worth is irrational.

I just don't like them tracking me without asking my permission or even alerting me.

> I don't see how buying something because some marketing convinced you of its worth is irrational.

It's not as much that they convinced me to buy something, it's that they did it by using data they got by essentially spying on me.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#175

Post by ENGNR »

jedberg wrote: post #172
Nikker wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now that the MACs are random does that really solve the problem? A probe request sends out the real MAC of the AP it's looking for as well as the AP ESSID. By using anyone of many translators you can get a map of each ESSID with GPS co-ordinates. While many people will be probing for Starbucks and McDonalds they will always have a unique probe for their own home AP. So now there is no "neat" way of using the MAC as a…

I'm under the impression that every request is a different random MAC, until you connect to the wifi network.

I think they're saying you can still identify a device with pretty good certainty by the probe requests it sends. Probe will include the MAC of your home AP and other known APs, which are unique enough, even if your phone's MAC is changing with each probe.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#176

Post by simoncion »

jedberg wrote: post #172
Nikker wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now that the MACs are random does that really solve the problem? A probe request sends out the real MAC of the AP it's looking for as well as the AP ESSID. By using anyone of many translators you can get a map of each ESSID with GPS co-ordinates. While many people will be probing for Starbucks and McDonalds they will always have a unique probe for their own home AP. So now there is no "neat" way of using the MAC as a…

I'm under the impression that every request is a different random MAC, until you connect to the wifi network.

I'm under the impression that most "mobile" WiFi-enabled devices will actively probe [0] for APs that they've been associated with in the past. It's the SSIDs and MACs of these APs that will be used to figure out who you are, despite your ever-changing client MAC address.

[0] By the gods, this is such a stupid idea. Aren't beacons often sent at a 10Hz rate? Assuming that we've associated with a network that actually sends beacons, why wouldn't remaining silent, listening for the beacon, then associating work just as well as probing?

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#177

Post by hubert3 »

Nikker wrote: post #154
userbinator wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's disturbingly creepy to think that stores would even think of doing this, but on the other hand it's also an indication of how clueless the general population is about the amount of identifiable data they're unconsciously "leaking" through personal, (nearly) always-on devices. My laptop is setup with a random MAC precisely to prevent this sort of tracking. Interestingly, the unbranded Android phones I have (one l…

Now that the MACs are random does that really solve the problem? A probe request sends out the real MAC of the AP it's looking for as well as the AP ESSID. By using anyone of many translators you can get a map of each ESSID with GPS co-ordinates. While many people will be probing for Starbucks and McDonalds they will always have a unique probe for their own home AP. So now there is no "neat" way of using the MAC as a…

Your assumption is incorrect - Probe requests do not contain the MAC of the AP, only the SSID. Wifi clients usually only save the name and security type/PSK of previously joined networks. In many situations, the same SSID is broadcast by multiple different APs with different MAC addresses in the same area so it wouldn't make sense to remember a specific SSID/MAC pair.

If the same client (iPhone) probes for a list of SSIDs with one random MAC and then probes for the same list again a short while later with a different randomised MAC, you could still track that individual based on the list of networks they probe for.

If the client MAC is randomised for every single new 802.11 probe that makes it harder but you could still track based on a single unique SSID probed for (i.e. something more unique than NETGEAR).

I'm going to look into this and possibly update my tool iSniff GPS.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#178

Post by lucaspiller »

meepmorp wrote: post #168
elarkin wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without being too specific, you should assume that Large stores already do this. Any store claiming to have "in store wifi" is almost guaranteed to be tracking you through your mac address. The system that I'm familiar with only tracks where you're going. It didn't (as of a couple months ago) have any way of linking your mac back to a consumer profile.

I was in a shopping mall recently, where the free wifi required your name and an email address before letting you use it. Fuck that.

That's pretty standard for all free wifi in the UK.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#179

Post by lucaspiller »

robkeane wrote: post #145
User9812 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know what companies never do? They never ask. I see dating ads, cars advertisements, feminine healthcare products, insurance ads, etc. What do I want to see? Travel accessories, computers, hardware, games, tech gadgets, etc. I never see these ads. Why doesn't Google say, hey, you're going to see Adsense all over the internet, advertisements before videos on YouTube, etc. Would you like to select a few categori…

You can set your interests for ads (and see what Google thinks you like) here: https://www.google.com/settings/u/0/ads

Google thinks I am 15 years older than I am and I like cats.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#180

Post by octo_t »

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #148

This is interesting. If _I_ did this while trying to find an open network, I'd probably be described by the FBI man who tries to charge me with unauthorized network access as using countermeasures learned from al Qaeda's IT guys. If Apple does it on behalf of users though I'm sure it would be fine. And yes, I've been involved in a criminal proceeding where the government tried to claim that changing a wifi MAC was ev…

well changing the MAC can be evidence for this:

imagine you get banned from your university network for breaking the terms of use (lets say torrenting) - you change your MAC address so you can get back on the network. you know you've been banned and you've made the conscious decision to bypass the security of the network.

Post reply on HN