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iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

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Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#101

Post by jdjb »

shurcooL wrote: post #92
DanBC wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one of the advantages could be that they can optimize the store layout better so you don't have to walk as much to find what you want. But stores do not want to do that. Stores know you want a pint of milk and loaf of bread. They put these two items far apart which means you need to walk past all that other stuff, this increasing the chance you'll buy something else. Tracking technology isn't going to ne used to ma…

This is interesting and indicative of a bigger problem. Why isn't it most profitable for the stores to provide the best experience for customers in order to be most profitable? Suppose there are two stores: - Store A. Offers decent experience for the customer. - Store B. Offers much better experience for the customer. One would naively expect and hope that, given those two choices, more people would prefer to go to t…

And going even further, why don't customers punish the stores that give shitty customer by no longer shopping there? Same goes for your ISP, politician, etc... We have short memories.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#102

Post by pbhjpbhj »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #34
yuubi wrote: post #28

We learned during the prosecution of Swartz that MAC addresses are the analog of VIN number numbers, and that tampering with them is a sign of ill intent. I await the federal case against Apple or an Apple customer with bated breath.

>VIN number numbers PNS syndrome plus one ?!

What number numbers in VIN number numbers convinces you to number it as a number of numbers that numbers highly enough to be PNS syndrome?

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#103

Post by mpyne »

kevinchen wrote: post #49
nitrogen wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty clear that Apple is positioning themselves in stark contrast to Google, they want to be the privacy/security company. Internet companies with advertising business models are a dime a dozen so that is a real advantage that differentiates Apple. It's difficult to reconcile this claim with their participation in PRISM et. al., previous long-term storage of cell tower locations, ownership of a mobile ad netwo…

- We still don't know whether or not the companies on the PRISM slides were participating voluntarily or even knowingly. - I don't see how constructing a database of cell tower locations violates privacy. They are beacons used for finding the user's location when they have location services turned on. - iAd is a joke of an ad network, and stores a negligible amount of user data compared to Google's. It's also relativ…

> - We still don't know whether or not the companies on the PRISM slides were participating voluntarily or even knowingly.

Sure we do. PRISM has an NSA part and a company part. The company had to build out their end in order to participate in PRISM.

However it's important to realize that compliance in some form with NSLs and warrants was not optional for Apple. By not participating in PRISM they would simply have turned over the same data on each request by manual means.

That modality is probably an even bigger threat to user privacy than PRISM. In PRISM, Apple's legal team would have to vet each and every single NSL or warrant and then manually activate an automated process to ship the required data over. While Apple didn't release a ton of details about how they implement it, this automated process is precisely the thing that can be done without a raft of Apple employees having to map/reduce it all manually (and possibly leak part of it themselves, maliciously or accidentally).

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#104

Post by ams6110 »

craigyk wrote: post #50
ams6110 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I do this at home because it resolves the problem of a duplicate IP addresses on the network caused by a device assuming it still has the same IP address (Apple devices seems to do this in particular) while meanwhile another one has taken it.

What? IME Apple devices are extremely polite about refusing/deactivating IP addresses that are already in use.

My experience is I get home, open my laptop, and it seems to by default assume it has the same IP as last time it was on my home network. Meanwhile my kid's 2DS game is using that IP, and I have a few minutes of chaos. I just assign fixed IPs to all the regularly connected devices and I don't encounter that.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#106

Post by atmosx »

brunnsbe wrote: post #6

If this becomes the trend (which in my opinon would be nice) it will become a big problem for companies that specialise in customer tracking e.g. for supermarkets and big department stores. Previously it was quite easy to track a customer, how long he or she spends time in the store, which floors he or she visits, etc. by putting up dummy WiFI-networks that the customers phones find by giving out their MAC-addresses.

Isn't that suppose to be illegal in first place? I mean without actual consent, tracking a device... Doesn't sound extremely ethical.

That said in some airports, changing MAC address is illegal. Now that the iPhone will support the feature and most owners will have no idea what's happening, I guess these airports will have to change policy :-)

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#107

Post by nitrogen »

nitrogen wrote: post #95
goldfeld wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big corps would be hard pressed to be "good citizens" or bear anything resembling respectfulness. They're a multitude of individuals with often conflicting interests who are all given the general direction of going for profit. Maybe an exception could be a big company where a founder who really puts his grand vision/values above anything else is still in control, which is not the case (or has ever been for Apple.)

User IBM's original comment was that Apple is going for the "privacy/security" persona, which is kind of impossible if they're not also acting as a "good citizen" worthy of trust with one's privacy and security.

Thanks, everyone, for reminding me why I stopped reading and commenting on Apple-related threads on HN. 27+ downvotes later, I still haven't changed my mind, but if you wish to try, logic works better than weak justifications for exploitative, sociopathic corporate behavior and targeted downvoting.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#108

Post by mcintyre1994 »

praseodym wrote: post #32
brunnsbe wrote: post #6

If this becomes the trend (which in my opinon would be nice) it will become a big problem for companies that specialise in customer tracking e.g. for supermarkets and big department stores. Previously it was quite easy to track a customer, how long he or she spends time in the store, which floors he or she visits, etc. by putting up dummy WiFI-networks that the customers phones find by giving out their MAC-addresses.

The MAC address is stable once a device is authenticated (connected) to the network. With the trend of providing 'free' wifi access within stores, making sure that users connect to that network is enough to continue tracking them.

I wonder if this explains why a lot of these 'free' Wifi networks let you connect with no issues then ask you to login or whatever when you try to do anything. I figured it was probably just to offer a better login screen (than the Wifi settings on whatever device) but stabilising devices for tracking would make sense too if others do this.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#109

Post by rahimnathwani »

_greim_ wrote: post #31
shurcooL wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely curious, how does it being a problem for them benefit you? (I'm assuming you're not saying that out of indifferent malice but because you have personal gains, which is normal.) Can you please elaborate on your point?

I think on the general principle of privacy. But also, the idea that the more trackable you are, the more easily manipulated you are by marketers and advertisers. Free markets work better the more consumers are rational. Giving marketers deep psychological and behavioral insight increasingly enables them to circumvent rationality and "hack" consumers in various ways.

There's a flip side to this. Being less trackable means that any passive advertising or active marketing you do see is less tailored to your situation and needs.

When I walk around I see many billboards advertising products for which I have no use (e.g. female hair care products). If tracking technology could replace those with things I actually might buy (even if male hair care products) then I would be a touch happier.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#110

Post by notatoad »

praseodym wrote: post #86
mikeash wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How will you make sure of that, though? Only a tiny fraction of smartphone users will bother to connect to your wifi, and it'll be a skewed sample.

By making sure your steel-reinforced concrete mall walls are thick enough to block proper 3G/4G reception (no, really, reception is pretty bad in a lot of indoor places). But still, I agree, it would be very hard to have everyone connect to your wifi.

it's hard to get everybody, but it's easy to get a significant sample. just set up an open network called Starbucks WiFi and watch all the iPhones connect to it
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