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Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

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Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#51
post #2

I see this a lot from small- and medium-sized business owners I interact with from time to time. They want CS graduates who can walk in the door and design and implement an entire system using a very specific set of (often closed-source, vendor-specific) tools with zero training. And they'd ideally like to pay no more than $40k/yr because, ya know, this person just got out of college! CS knowledge is, I think, valued…

"but once you leave the sphere of companies ... the atmosphere can become rather absurd"

Total agreement here. A lot of the issue is ignorance. Most small to medium business owners and managers do nto code and do not know how to. They see a CS grad as a white, male, 135 lbs., pasty, skinny genius. Just like Bill Gates, Zuck, and countless movie 'hackers'. They expect your skills to be just as good to, ie. able to 'code' a website in minutes and hack NORAD as well.

Why? They just plain do not know anything about the discipline. They have to go on what little they do know, and that stuff oversells the CS degree by a lot.

I had a boss once that thought I should be able to program a microcontroller in an afternoon. Mind you, the spec sheet is ~650 pages. But he really really did think that it was that easy. Like it was speaking Spanish, it just took a long time to get up to speed, but when you are there, it's super simple.

Its the same disconnect as with dentists, accountants, lawyers, and mechanics. Most people can't begin to think in the way required, and they are helpless without you. That breeds resentment and suspicion.

To help with these issues, a level of trust needs to be established. You have to trust them, and they you. Many employers think that the trust comes from the degree granting agency. University vetted you, so I can at least trust that you know how to do hacker stuff.

Unfortunately, the gulf is so wide between the layman and the professional that trust is ALL you have to go on and a degree is not enough. Possibly a better testing agency, like the Bar, AMA, or ASE is needed as 'hackers' are more and more needed.

Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#52
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good part of this is that almost all software engineering is vocational, right? But it isn't always taught that way, and somehow in the public mind CS has become equated with "able to program computers". This sucks two ways: first, it means that people with solid theoretical foundations in CS are derided if they can't--for example--get an iPhone to print to a wireless printer, and second (and worse!) it means that…

Another way of looking at it is that CS graduates are overqualified for 90% of current internet jobs. They are also underqualified, judging from the number of CS grads and upperclassmen asking for help with a Rails tutorial, since CS programs do not actually teach web development. They are also likely to have a fair bit of debt from college loans. This is a great way for companies to prejudice themselves down the sal…

> CS graduates are overqualified for 90% of current internet jobs. They are also underqualified...

This is 100% true for new CS grads I think.

It's even true for people like myself (who have been working in industry for over 5 years, but then don't know a particular tool that a new tech job is asking for...if I don't have to use it at my current job, and I can only program small things on the side using a particular language/tool, how does one get the needed experience that the startups want you to know if they won't hire you so you can learn it, firsthand?).

I just finished a 3-4 month stint having a past student volunteer with me so I could give him the additional direction and practical experience I knew he needed to actually get a job locally (and web developer positions are few and far between where I live). This is a few years AFTER he had already graduated from San Diego State's CS program.

Now with that additional training he was able to get a part-time position at a local web development firm (a foot in the door) and is also on his way to a 2nd interview for a web developer position at our local county office.

It hurts when you can see the potential in someone and know that it's not being developed properly because no one else (a.k.a. potential employers) can see it and make the jump to hire the person based on their potential and then give a bit of their time to train that person properly.

It's also awesome to know that my past student is going in the right direction now through my guidance (partially) but also through his hard work these past few months to acquire the needed skills :-).

P.S. I forgot to mention in our area, most of the graduates of our CS program can't find actual software development jobs (because there are hardly any available) so many of them end up in regular IT work, which makes them even more overqualified (and underqualified) since their schooling really didn't teach them about the IT stuff, per se, so they have to learn a whole lot on the job (once they are even able to get one).

Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#53
>I’ve gone through a postgraduate qualification and nine years of experience to get to where I am, so don’t presume to know more than me about how to teach children - and if you do, expect that I will be justifiably miffed.

This is the thing about teachers that just irritates the hell out of me. I had plenty of teachers who went through postgraduate qualification and had 20 years of experience who couldn't teach for shit. Getting trained as a teacher doesn't mean you're going to be automatically good at it, just like getting trained in CS doesn't mean you're going to be a good programmer.

I've been taught by plenty of people who didn't have the title Teacher, who taught me way more than my Teacher ever did. I've also talked and taught plenty of people who thought they were stupid because their formal University Teacher, armed with postgraduate qualifications and years of experience, couldn't communicate a simple concept to them. They go through life thinking they're dumb because this trained teacher made them feel that way because the teacher failed at teaching and passed that failure to the student.

So to see this person talk about their qualifications and how she thinks these qualifications confer teaching ability leaves me quite a bit miffed, because it comes off as just an arrogant dismissal of criticism.

Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#54
post #2

I see this a lot from small- and medium-sized business owners I interact with from time to time. They want CS graduates who can walk in the door and design and implement an entire system using a very specific set of (often closed-source, vendor-specific) tools with zero training. And they'd ideally like to pay no more than $40k/yr because, ya know, this person just got out of college! CS knowledge is, I think, valued…

>'CS knowledge is, I think, valued highly (or at least valued) in the tech sector itself, but once you leave the sphere of companies that make tech products for tech people, or if you happen to be outside one of the major software hubs, the atmosphere can become rather absurd.'

Spot on.

By my estimation, the most common sort of work in IT has little resemblance to computer science. It's something more along the lines of very environment, industry and proprietary platform specific operations.

There's a very wacky disconnect between what's taught in schools, desired by students and expected by employers.

I'd liken the situation to one in which mechanical engineers, ASE mechanics and truck drivers were all lumped together as simply 'TI' (Truck Industry).

All those roles are needed and all have ready and willing candidates available, but most employers have no clue how to compensate, hire or task each appropriately.

Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#55
post #7

"It is a school’s job to churn out students who will be able to walk into a job in industry on day one and work in whatever language/paradigm is flavour du jour. WRONG! We’re here to teach children the core concepts of Computer Science" Am I the only one ticked off by the "WRONG!" in this post? If you can tell me that it is your job to accept payment yet not create useful people, in my opinion, you're committing some…

Speaking of WRONG!, the University of Waterloo in Canada is not a high school. Not only is there a clarification at the top of the page, the entire article reads like it was written about high school classes. Not just subtle things like "I have studied education at the postgraduate level" or characterising herself as a teacher rather than a lecturer or professor, but complete giveaway lines like "don’t presume to know more than me about how to teach children", repeated a couple of times.

Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#56
post #50
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its state not federal in the USA. In Texas you need a P.E. license, or did, anyway, to be an engineer. It boils down to how much a state legally buys into the P.E. license exams. Some care a lot, some not at all, some have an alternative viewpoint for certification and bonding.

Who is driving all of the trains in Texas then?

Employed railroad enthusiasts? :D

Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#57
post #4

I think there's a distinction to be made between Computer Science and Software Engineering as separate disciplines.

Agreed. And therefore, shouldn't the vast majority of people studying Computer Science really change to Software Engineering? If someone wants to work in industry building products that will largely use the infrastructure and architecture built by others (coding in .Net, building web or native apps, etc.), isn't that an engineering problem to solve, rather than a CS / academic problem? Computer Science seems it shoul…

Computer Science trains students in thought processes. Since quite a few companies use a limited number of tools and frameworks, most CS graduates can jump in and be productive pretty quickly, given the proper on-site training. Problems arise when employers expect graduates to be immediately productive working with unfamiliar tools in an unfamiliar environment.

Several undergraduate programs offer engineering practicum programs in which students are paired with organizations to work on open source software. These opportunities can help to familiarize students with some of the engineering practices in the industry. Every company is a bit different and development practices change often.

Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#58

It's a great subtle troll that the title refers to professional programmers as "IT professionals." They of course don't think of themselves that way; they're "developers", "engineers", or "hackers." To them, IT is the poor guy installing Adobe Reader on the manager's PC.

Referring to people who build software as "IT" is a UK thing. The author is from the UK.

Perhaps in poor taste and off topic, but I just cannot contain myself. :-) What does IT stand for? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zfa2ecb5lZw

Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#59
Spoken exactly like what I'd expect from a teaching field that is doing everything possible to obsolete itself.

Look, let me sum up the problem with CS education in a nutshell: today, when I think about hiring someone, I basically don't care about their CS education. This is increasingly what I hear from my colleagues as well. Degree in CS means more or less nothing. Notice that that's not the case in Chemistry (since the author is fond of comparing fields). What does that tell us? That whether you like it or not, you are doing a poor job teaching them, or that we have very different definitions of CS. Which is fine, after all, there are degrees in accounting and degrees in math that are separate, maybe we need to move to that model.

If your program graduates students that have never used version control, never committed to a single open source project, or have a difficult time picking up new languages/technologies, then maybe you're teaching them "something", but that something isn't what the world cares about. So unless they go and become teachers of this thing you call CS as well, its time to change what you're teaching.

(BTW, I rarely find that these recent grads have done NP reductions or any of that kind of thing that would at least justify not teaching them all that "useless" industry stuff)

Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#60

Spoken exactly like what I'd expect from a teaching field that is doing everything possible to obsolete itself. Look, let me sum up the problem with CS education in a nutshell: today, when I think about hiring someone, I basically don't care about their CS education. This is increasingly what I hear from my colleagues as well. Degree in CS means more or less nothing. Notice that that's not the case in Chemistry (sinc…

I think the degree-inflation problem is the key here. There is no reason why a person needs a degree to be able to program. That wasn't the original purpose of such degrees.

In a nutshell, academic certifications assess whether you know things, while industry certifications assess whether you can do things.

For a business, there is a strong focus on doing, rather than knowing. Who cares about whether certain classes of problems are computable? Just write a program that does it for our problem set.

And there is nothing wrong with this. At the same time though, if you want to make advances that bring about the next generation of programming/technology/etc, you would need to have an understanding of how these things work.

Unfortunately, this line has been blurred significantly -- universities have become big business, caring more about selling degrees then teaching fundamentals. At the same time, businesses have been using degrees as a criteria for hiring, and then complaining that people with said degrees can't do what they expect them to.

I hate to describe a problem without providing a solution, but I don't really have a solution for this.

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