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Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

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Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#41

Post by vacri »

bicknergseng wrote: post #21

"Do you expect Chemistry students to walk out of school ready to begin work in a lab?" Yes? As someone who didn't major in chemistry or go into a related field... what the hell does someone with a degree in chemistry do when they graduate? Go and work in a coffeeshop? Edit: the original post seems to have been edited several times since my original comment, including the clarification that she's a high school teacher…

In italics, the first line after the heading is "this is high school, not university". Since when did anywhere give recognised degrees as part of a high school education?

Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#43

Post by svachalek »

karmelapple wrote: post #15
throwaway5752 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I'm annoyed by the false dichotomy. I don't agree with you, though. I think the schools should teach theory. Anyone that can learn that theory (algorithms, data structures, computability) should probably be able to be useful without much trouble. That's been my experience with CS interns, at least. edit: I also distinguish between CS and CE. I'd firmly agree with you that CE or other engineering oriented degr…

I'm curious what the "computer science" equivalent in the engineering world would be. All of the engineering majors study a particular type of engineering: mechanical, electrical, computer, construction. There's no "engineering science" program that I'm aware of that would teach the theory behind engineering and award a degree just for that. Instead, the engineering student must understand that way of thinking simult…

As others have said there are in fact general engineering degrees, they called it ESM at my university.

But as someone who took both EE and CS courses, I wouldn't consider the EE to be particularly more "vocational training" than the CS.

I think it's more of a level thing; higher-ranked universities will tend to be more theoretical and take umbrage at being thought of as vocational training. More prestigious companies will also interview more for your grasp of theory than your skill bullets. E.G. Facebook is a PHP shop but when I interviewed there they didn't ask a single PHP question. I bet they never do.

Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#44

Post by rhizome »

angersock wrote: post #6
glesica wrote: post #2

I see this a lot from small- and medium-sized business owners I interact with from time to time. They want CS graduates who can walk in the door and design and implement an entire system using a very specific set of (often closed-source, vendor-specific) tools with zero training. And they'd ideally like to pay no more than $40k/yr because, ya know, this person just got out of college! CS knowledge is, I think, valued…

A good part of this is that almost all software engineering is vocational, right? But it isn't always taught that way, and somehow in the public mind CS has become equated with "able to program computers". This sucks two ways: first, it means that people with solid theoretical foundations in CS are derided if they can't--for example--get an iPhone to print to a wireless printer, and second (and worse!) it means that…

Another way of looking at it is that CS graduates are overqualified for 90% of current internet jobs. They are also underqualified, judging from the number of CS grads and upperclassmen asking for help with a Rails tutorial, since CS programs do not actually teach web development. They are also likely to have a fair bit of debt from college loans. This is a great way for companies to prejudice themselves down the salary ladder while overestimating the potential of any one recruit, since the underpaid-and-overqualified are going to want a raise as they become more proficient in the vocational side of programming, and as everybody knows: the best way to get a raise is to change jobs. Rinse and repeat.

Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#46

Post by quasque »

verelo wrote: post #7

"It is a school’s job to churn out students who will be able to walk into a job in industry on day one and work in whatever language/paradigm is flavour du jour. WRONG! We’re here to teach children the core concepts of Computer Science" Am I the only one ticked off by the "WRONG!" in this post? If you can tell me that it is your job to accept payment yet not create useful people, in my opinion, you're committing some…

She's talking about an education in computing for teenagers who will typically be sitting exams at ages 16 and 18, for GCSE and A-Level qualifications respectively - not a rant about undergraduate education, as you seem to be implying.

Here's more details on what these subjects are composed of; it's quite basic stuff: http://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/ict-and-computer-science

Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#47

Post by cbhl »

verelo wrote: post #7

"It is a school’s job to churn out students who will be able to walk into a job in industry on day one and work in whatever language/paradigm is flavour du jour. WRONG! We’re here to teach children the core concepts of Computer Science" Am I the only one ticked off by the "WRONG!" in this post? If you can tell me that it is your job to accept payment yet not create useful people, in my opinion, you're committing some…

As someone who went to school at Waterloo, I think I have to side with the author here.

Where did I learn how to use git and how to write Android applications? Certainly not at school -- I did it on the dime of some very generous employers that were hoping to woo me into working for them after I graduated. Students gossip about which employers are best -- if a co-op student isn't growing during their experience, then (as an employer) you're going to have a hell of a time retaining the kids when they graduate.

What did I learn in class? Algorithms, data structures, and other fundamentals that are required to grok (let alone answer) the kinds of questions that come up in interviews. Interesting stuff, but almost entirely tangential to industry skills.

The only reason Waterloo students post-graduation are "useful" in the workplace is because they've been in the workplace -- with almost two years of experience!

Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#48

Post by newaccountfool »

MarcScott wrote: post #28
bicknergseng wrote: post #21

"Do you expect Chemistry students to walk out of school ready to begin work in a lab?" Yes? As someone who didn't major in chemistry or go into a related field... what the hell does someone with a degree in chemistry do when they graduate? Go and work in a coffeeshop? Edit: the original post seems to have been edited several times since my original comment, including the clarification that she's a high school teacher…

The author teaches CS to 11-18 year old students. In the UK School != University

Least some on read the side note.

Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#49

Post by bicknergseng »

MarcScott wrote: post #28
bicknergseng wrote: post #21

"Do you expect Chemistry students to walk out of school ready to begin work in a lab?" Yes? As someone who didn't major in chemistry or go into a related field... what the hell does someone with a degree in chemistry do when they graduate? Go and work in a coffeeshop? Edit: the original post seems to have been edited several times since my original comment, including the clarification that she's a high school teacher…

The author teaches CS to 11-18 year old students. In the UK School != University

Some perspective, but doesn't necessarily change my point. Why should we allow CS to be bludgeoned into the same awful educational pattern of memorization and ...irrelevance... that we've allowed to happen to mathematics? Students often hate math because of the awful, disconnected, uninspired way it is taught. Spend time teaching students how to make games with Unity or iPhone apps or whatever! Not only can teachers use those as amazing vehicles for CS fundamentals, but a teenager who builds something real and has fun doing it has a much better chance of actually becoming interested in CS.

Re: Misconceptions that IT professionals seem to have about CS education

#50

Post by bgroins »

VLM wrote: post #33
na85 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have that in Canada too. But in the US you don't need to be accredited to call yourself an engineer.

Its state not federal in the USA. In Texas you need a P.E. license, or did, anyway, to be an engineer. It boils down to how much a state legally buys into the P.E. license exams. Some care a lot, some not at all, some have an alternative viewpoint for certification and bonding.

Who is driving all of the trains in Texas then?
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