An open letter on feminism in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#331

Post by webmaven » Sun, May 25, 2014, 11:41 AM UTC

mreiland wrote: post #323

webmaven wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being part of of the problem (that is, tacitly consenting to bad behavior by staying silent and not confronting it directly) does not make you a terrible person, or even a bad one. It just means that you are part of the problem. The thing is, you can't expect a cookie for not doing terrible things. Not doing terrible things is the absolute minimum that is expected of you as an adult member of society. Only doing the…

Logically speaking, since folks with your attitude are a large part of the reason people like me don't bother, wouldn't that also make you, and your actions here, a part of the problem? And wouldn't that imply the solution is to stop doing what you're doing? So in essence, didn't you just admonish yourself?

Let's just say that your retort, "well I would have helped if only you didn't make such a big deal about it", is awfully convenient as an excuse to do nothing (and is very nearly the same as the 'tone argument'). Because, of course, if no one makes a big deal about something, that also provides an excuse.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#332

Post by webmaven » Sun, May 25, 2014, 11:50 AM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #324

webmaven wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being part of of the problem (that is, tacitly consenting to bad behavior by staying silent and not confronting it directly) does not make you a terrible person, or even a bad one. It just means that you are part of the problem. The thing is, you can't expect a cookie for not doing terrible things. Not doing terrible things is the absolute minimum that is expected of you as an adult member of society. Only doing the…

That's black/white thinking. Folks do a lot of things in a lot of spheres. Not doing one terrible thing doesn't imply they're doing nothing else at all. Take off the blinders - there're a lot more issues in the world than this one. Lots of people just don't have the emotional energy to invest in all of them, or even in very many of them.

Well, sure. There are many issues on which I am still part of the problem. As I said, that doesn't make me a bad person.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#333

Post by mreiland » Fri, May 30, 2014, 7:22 PM UTC

gress wrote: post #329

mreiland wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you think the male should put himself at risk of being fired because the female may get fired if she does it? That's not equality, and I would defend anyone who stays quiet in such circumstances. Don't ask the random male to go to bat for you if you're not willing to do it yourself. Common sense.

You're confused about what equality means. When a group has less power, they have more to risk. You are staunchly defending the status quo, and insisting that all change is the responsibility of women.

No, everyone else is confusing an entire gender with a person.

It is not fair to ask person A to put themselves at risk for person B when person B is not willing to put themselves at risk for themself.

This isn't about gender, if it were two men, no one would blink twice at me asking why the software dev didn't put themselves at risk. But because we have a social expectation of protecting women, even by women themselves, people expect the male software dev to put themselves at risk for the female software dev, even if the female software dev is not willing to put themselves at risk.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#334

Post by mreiland » Fri, May 30, 2014, 7:25 PM UTC

webmaven wrote: post #331

mreiland wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Logically speaking, since folks with your attitude are a large part of the reason people like me don't bother, wouldn't that also make you, and your actions here, a part of the problem? And wouldn't that imply the solution is to stop doing what you're doing? So in essence, didn't you just admonish yourself?

Let's just say that your retort, "well I would have helped if only you didn't make such a big deal about it", is awfully convenient as an excuse to do nothing (and is very nearly the same as the 'tone argument'). Because, of course, if no one makes a big deal about something, that also provides an excuse.

And thankfully that isn't what I said, because I agree that would be a ridiculous argument.

What I said is that after getting blamed constantly for no other reason than being born with a cock I've stopped caring what the people doing the blaming think.

Another way to look at it is like this:

Men are not stupid. They know if they've been sexist or not. When you blame them for shit they know they are not involved in, it means they cannot trust you when you blame other men for shit they didn't witness.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#335

Post by webmaven » Sun, Jun 01, 2014, 2:53 PM UTC

mreiland wrote: post #334

webmaven wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's just say that your retort, "well I would have helped if only you didn't make such a big deal about it", is awfully convenient as an excuse to do nothing (and is very nearly the same as the 'tone argument'). Because, of course, if no one makes a big deal about something, that also provides an excuse.

And thankfully that isn't what I said, because I agree that would be a ridiculous argument. What I said is that after getting blamed constantly for no other reason than being born with a cock I've stopped caring what the people doing the blaming think. Another way to look at it is like this: Men are not stupid. They know if they've been sexist or not. When you blame them for shit they know they are not involved in, i…

How can I be more clear about this? You are not a terrible person, and are not to blame.

Being part of the problem, or more precisely, part of a problematic system) does not mean that the problem is your fault, or that you have a duty to fix it.

Congratulations, you have met your basic societal obligations. You are off the hook. You are free to look the other way rather than confront or condemn sexism when you encounter it, in person or online.