An open letter on feminism in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#321

Post by makomk » Fri, May 23, 2014, 9:23 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #316

srpablo wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also hate things that are made up. http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=341 Most people who feel animosity to feminists are attacking a caricature of them that can't be said to meaningfully exist. It also usually involves a misclassification of anger at a bad situation with 'hate.' The fact that you can read something like this article and connect it to anything hateful, let alone angry (it's not either) shows why many…

Read through https://twitter.com/shanley - give it a good hour. You'll come out thinking that you've experienced an alternate dimension, in which all men are evil, all women are victims who need to fight against the oppressor, and the only way forward is some kind of violent revolution, probably accompanied with mass executions of some sort. It's not a caricature. Those people are real, and fairly scary. See http://s…

Yeah, and every time someone like you objects to them, moderate feminists spring forward to insist that they're "straw feminists", that you imagined the whole thing, and that even thinking such feminists exist proves you really just have an axe to grind against feminism. I've even been accused of attacking a straw feminist for (accurately) criticising the views of someone who was incredibly popular amongst that group of feminists for exactly those views. Even if only a small proportion of feminists hold fucked up views, almost all of them are part of the problem by shielding those extremists from criticism.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#322

Post by makomk » Fri, May 23, 2014, 9:47 PM UTC

anuleczka wrote: post #227

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your implication here is that people who identify under your listed banners cannot be jerks. This is simply an outright falsehood. An ideology that insists it cannot have jerks among its ranks is one that probably needs to look in the mirror.

If you do not believe in the inherent equality and humanity of men and women (along with all other marginalized groups), then yes, it's safe to say that you are indeed a jerk.

The trouble is, most of the people who're "promoting a more feminist, egalitarian, diverse culture" are not in fact capable of grasping "the inherent equality and humanity of men and women (along with all other marginalized groups)". In fact, I've never met anyone who can full stop.

Turns out that everyone's very good at understanding the inherent equality and dignity of people who're exactly like them and hates it when people claim to respect them without putting the work in. They also want to be seen to respect others but only so long as they don't have to put the work in. The history of feminism, for example, is rather enlightening...

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#323

Post by mreiland » Fri, May 23, 2014, 9:54 PM UTC

webmaven wrote: post #320

mreiland wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And after the umpteenth time of someone telling me I'm a terrible person ... I decide to be terrible by not caring about it anymore. This is why your attitude is actively hurting you. It's driving away people like me, who actually agree with the basic premise that women should be treated equally.

Being part of of the problem (that is, tacitly consenting to bad behavior by staying silent and not confronting it directly) does not make you a terrible person, or even a bad one. It just means that you are part of the problem. The thing is, you can't expect a cookie for not doing terrible things. Not doing terrible things is the absolute minimum that is expected of you as an adult member of society. Only doing the…

Logically speaking, since folks with your attitude are a large part of the reason people like me don't bother, wouldn't that also make you, and your actions here, a part of the problem?

And wouldn't that imply the solution is to stop doing what you're doing?

So in essence, didn't you just admonish yourself?

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#324

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, May 23, 2014, 9:58 PM UTC

webmaven wrote: post #320

mreiland wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And after the umpteenth time of someone telling me I'm a terrible person ... I decide to be terrible by not caring about it anymore. This is why your attitude is actively hurting you. It's driving away people like me, who actually agree with the basic premise that women should be treated equally.

Being part of of the problem (that is, tacitly consenting to bad behavior by staying silent and not confronting it directly) does not make you a terrible person, or even a bad one. It just means that you are part of the problem. The thing is, you can't expect a cookie for not doing terrible things. Not doing terrible things is the absolute minimum that is expected of you as an adult member of society. Only doing the…

That's black/white thinking. Folks do a lot of things in a lot of spheres. Not doing one terrible thing doesn't imply they're doing nothing else at all.

Take off the blinders - there're a lot more issues in the world than this one. Lots of people just don't have the emotional energy to invest in all of them, or even in very many of them.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#325

Post by beat » Fri, May 23, 2014, 10:07 PM UTC

joshuapants wrote: post #318

beat wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Andrea Dworkin hardly represents the vast, vast majority of feminists. You're identifying an entire group with a lone, extremist, and broadly rejected voice. I don't think anyone is denying Andrea Dworkin exists. I think people are denying that she's relevant to this discussion, except as a way to keep blaming women.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

You brought up Andrea Dworkin, not me, and you suggested she represents feminism, not me.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#326

Post by mreiland » Fri, May 23, 2014, 10:18 PM UTC

gamacodre wrote: post #285

optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

I've seen some milder forms of it. As a team lead about 20 years ago, one of my guys started going on about the virtues of the "cheesecake" in the game we were working on. In the middle of a meeting between him, myself and our other coder who happened to be female. She got really quiet, and I said something to him along the lines of, "Oh, come on, man," and moved the meeting along. Didn't really address it beyond tha…

I guess I'm missing the significance of the term cheesecake?

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#327

Post by joshuapants » Sat, May 24, 2014, 3:38 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #325

joshuapants wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

You brought up Andrea Dworkin, not me, and you suggested she represents feminism, not me.

No, the parent comment brought up the idea that radical feminists with despicable beliefs don't exist and tried to brush them under the table. I posted one example of many and clearly said > Not all feminists, not even all radical feminists espouse views like this, but they exist

You are putting words in my mouth by saying I claimed they were representative. It's intellectually dishonest to say otherwise, though given the level of discourse you've shown elsewhere on this post it's clear I shouldn't expect any better.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#328

Post by was_hellbanned » Sat, May 24, 2014, 6:15 PM UTC

mreiland wrote: post #238

was_hellbanned wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to revise your post. It has some good points in it (e.g. the CEO bit), but they're hidden inside a very long rant laced with red flags like: Until they start shoving these sorts of issues down my throat I'm willing to bet that nobody has ever done anything like shoving anything down your throat, and that sort of repulsive hyperbole is just a marker for irrational, reactionary flame-bait. Incidentally,…

I don't really care if you approve or not, but I think honesty on your part would have you clarifying that you made an assumption about blog posts being the only possible way I've ever experienced interaction on this topic.

you made an assumption about blog posts being the only possible way I've ever experienced interaction on this topic

You're spouting nonsense. Work on your reading skills.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#329

Post by gress » Sat, May 24, 2014, 7:22 PM UTC

mreiland wrote: post #300

gress wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there is a power imbalance.

you think the male should put himself at risk of being fired because the female may get fired if she does it? That's not equality, and I would defend anyone who stays quiet in such circumstances. Don't ask the random male to go to bat for you if you're not willing to do it yourself. Common sense.

You're confused about what equality means. When a group has less power, they have more to risk.

You are staunchly defending the status quo, and insisting that all change is the responsibility of women.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#330

Post by gress » Sat, May 24, 2014, 7:24 PM UTC

Ma8ee wrote: post #303

gress wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there is a power imbalance.

I don't agree with mreiland about not sticking up, but I also want to point out something important that I get the impression that many feminists miss: That men in general have more power than women in general does not mean that all men have power, or that even most of them are in a position of power.

This is true, but in a male dominated environment, there are usually men who have more power than women and if they don't use at least some of their power to support the cause of equality, they are supporting the status quo.