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Starting a Bank

ma.tt

51–60 of 68 posts

Re: Starting a Bank

#51

The problem with the "Bank Safe" slogan is that the FDIC exists.

Except that there've been rumors swirling regarding the FDIC's solvency for a while now. People no longer confident in the government's bailout ability would be comforted to hear there's an option where much more of their money will be physically retained. Not that the government will let the FDIC fail. They'll just inject new money endlessly to prevent it.

Remember that the FDIC is not funded by the government - it is funded by premiums that banks pay to get their "insurance". In this model SafeBank would have to pay a premium to the FDIC to get that insurance and as many small banks have found recently (when the premiums went up) those premiums are not insignificant. That's not to say that the government would not bail out the FDIC but to date there has been no reason to do so as they are completely funded by their clients...

Re: Starting a Bank

#52
post #17

The problem is that his proposals ignore the economics behind banking. If you take someone's money and put it in a vault, how can you provide interest on that money? You can't. You'd, in fact, have to levy fees to cover the costs of staffing, buildings, security, etc. Yes, even an internet bank has to have physical infrastructure somewhere. Heck, why am I going to spend $3 for a SafeBank iPhone app when I can access…

Interestingly, nearly all ATMs (with the exception of privately-owned ATMs in bars, etc.) in the UK don't charge for services (for about five years now). However, I wonder whether an ATM owned by bank A charges bank B itself when bank B's customers withdraw cash at bank A's ATMs.

Re: Starting a Bank

#53
post #31
post #17

The problem is that his proposals ignore the economics behind banking. If you take someone's money and put it in a vault, how can you provide interest on that money? You can't. You'd, in fact, have to levy fees to cover the costs of staffing, buildings, security, etc. Yes, even an internet bank has to have physical infrastructure somewhere. Heck, why am I going to spend $3 for a SafeBank iPhone app when I can access…

Everything you say is true for traditional full service banks. I believe however that we need to drop the idea of the one stop full service bank. Where real innovation and safety comes is through the idea of narrow limited purpose banks. There is a lot of space to innovate if you as a bank can focus on one product only. The simple way of doing this is to imagine every account type a bank has as a separate mutual fund…

They do have an existing, simple standard to transfer money. It's called ACH, and it's been around for decades. It works quite well.

ATM fees should not be run by separate companies -- then you'd have a company that would need to profit off ATM transactions, instead of using them as a loss leader, which means higher fees and more of them.

Credit cards can't be run by non-banks, b/c they are loans, and state and federal law limits the institutions that can issue variable-size loans.

Furthermore, the OAuth system would not work. Period. A customer being able to cut off the card issuer's access to their account? You would never get any card issuer to agree to use the system, because of the enormous potential for fraud (run up the bill, cancel the issuer's access before payment). BTW, you can already manage your card's limits -- just use the online portal, or call your company.

Finally, advertising is an overrated business model. Believe it or not, at some point, you need to make money off an actual valuable service or product. As mentioned above, transaction fees would need to be jacked up (for the institution to make money), eliminating any reduced costs benefit to consumers.

Re: Starting a Bank

#54
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just means that there's less competition. And when you start getting successful, your competitors will need to spend a few years implementing their system before they can start actually competing with you. And I wouldn't worry about the big banks catching on to the "do what you can to help your customer" concept, it's not in their culture.

It also means that unless you're starting out with at least $xx million dollars, you have no hope. It can take _years_ to get a business started if you're unlucky enough to choose a field under heavy regulation (something with it's own Cabinent-level bureau, like the FCC, EPA, or Fed). The paperwork takes a long, long time to process, the processes are laden with significant fees, you have to pay staff (usually lawye…

You seem to be confusing state law with federal law, and how preemption applies.

Banks are governed first and foremost by state law. State banking laws are very easy to adhere to. State/local banks do not have to be FDIC insured.

HOWEVER, once the state tries to offer services over state lines (to out-of-state customers, or out-of-state locations), then federal laws kick in. (Federal laws automatically kick in if a bank reaches a certain size.) Federal laws also apply to transactions between banks, where either bank is subject to federal laws (or if one bank is in a different state from another).

Finally, you vastly overestimate the lobbying prowess of national banks. Local/state banks have significantly more influence with politicians b/c they are in-state institutions (i.e., profits get taxed by that state; their executives are local businessmen instead of New Yorkers).

Re: Starting a Bank

#55
This just would not work. The reality of banking is that people want a relationship with their bank that they don't have to maintain - meaning they would only go to their bank or bank website when they absolutely have to. Not to go check out the latest blog post.

Invite only? With the much larger startup cost of a bank this is ridiculous.

What is really amazing is that this guy is actually ... "one of PC World’s Top 50 People on the Web, Inc.com’s 30 under 30, and Business Week’s 25 Most Influential People on the Web"

Re: Starting a Bank

#56

This reminds me of the wonderful theoretical country discussions we had in my economics classes at college. Forget a new kind of bank. Go total bluesky. What IF, we could design our own set of sovereign laws and principles. What would the "modern" country look like?

It would separate two forms of money: the common form of money used as means of exchange and a store of value; and, the debt/credit money created out of thin air through a contract and collateral. The two currencies would float against one another. People would be paid in common currency, but could borrow in the debt currency.

Re: Starting a Bank

#57
post #5

"We take your money and put it in a vault" That's not actually the job of a bank, is it? The job is to mediate lending and borrowing of money. By identifying the right people to lend money to, banks can offer the people whose money the take an interest rate. I still agree that there is a market for a better bank. I remember an example from the book "Why not?" where a bank (or something like that) offered to automatic…

Yeah we live in interesting times in which the historical role of banks and what banks actually are used for are diverging.

There's two kinds of things here (and I'd lump them separately):

(1) there's "putting money in vaults" and handling long-distance transactions (eg: debit cards, check-clearing, and so on)

(2) there's banks as "so you've got money you want to lend but no time? give your money to us and we'll loan it out, passing some share of the profits back to you" intermediaries

(1) is arguably what most people actually use banks for; (2) is how most consumer banks make their money (in the form of mortgages and cds and so on).

Aside from historical circumstance there's no particular reason why (1) and (2) are handled by the same institutions. Since (1) on its own isn't profitable any institution that does (1) needs to have its (1) activity subsidized; the present situation is that banks subsidize (1) via (2), but there's nothing that intrinsically says institutions that do (2) should do (1) (or that the only way to subsidize (1) is via (2)).

In many countries (Japan, some european countries that escape me now) there's an entire system of "postal banking" which is basically de-facto state-subsidized banking expressly for the purpose of (1).

If you think about it the connection between (1) and the postal system is pretty logical: the postal service exists to streamline communication within the state; it's pretty sensible to piggyback a payments and money transfer system on the existing communications infrastructure (and of course it's much more reliable to transfer money then it is mail an envelope with cash).

The USA never went the route of establishing a postal savings bank (nb: the historical names include "savings" but they always allowed payments / de-facto "checks" to be drawn); this was mainly b/c the idea was invented well after the founding of the republic and the USA is pretty slow on the uptake wrt good ideas invented elsewhere.

One of the takeaways or realizations I see people coming to a lot in response to the current crises is along the following lines:

- at the moment keeping commerce flowing depends on keeping checking and debit and credit-card systems all working smoothly (in other words: keeping the (1) activity going); without that the economy halts

- currently keeping (1) going is dependent upon the health of various private parties (banks + other financial firms); as these entities don't really make any money from (1) directly their ability to perform the services of (1) is contingent on how well they're doing in their other endeavors (activities in category (2), writ large); (1) is not enough

- thus disruption in (2) leads to disruption in (1) leads to disruption in the entire economy, even when (so it seems) there's no direct connection between (2) and (1)

...which leads to a realization that the current arrangement worked until it didn't but it's not that great of a system because it needlessly couples (1) to (2); depending on the kindness (and prosperity) of strangers to keep essential infrastructure running isn't a good plan.

Once people have that reaction they tend to produce one of the following proposals:

(A) set up a system of state-run full-reserve checking+savings accounts + debit cards, etc. (and optionally: phase out the FDIC guarantees; if you want a guarantee go with the full reserve bank); fund operations from taxes

(B) set up a dumb/simple/basic bank that just does the basics and takes almost no risk

I tend to think (A) is the longer-term smarter option but am well aware how against the grain it runs in the USA; (B) is like someone trying to accomplish the same goals but not really understanding how the tools they have at hand work (that's what the original post is like).

The quick case for (A) is that there's a reason the constitution grants the authority to build a post-office: aside from the general betterment of the commonwealth it specifically prevents a situation where your (then-fledgling) government is effectively held hostage by private-sector actors because those private actors own and operate infrastructure essential for the government to function (what good is a federal government if Megamail Inc. won't deliver it's mail?). These days basic savings + checking + long-distance payments are critical infrastructure on par with the post office (and on par with the original grant of authority to coin money and so on), and to avoid being held hostage the right option is to provide a de minimis payment infrastructure.

Good luck with that politically, though.

Re: Starting a Bank

#58
post #17

The problem is that his proposals ignore the economics behind banking. If you take someone's money and put it in a vault, how can you provide interest on that money? You can't. You'd, in fact, have to levy fees to cover the costs of staffing, buildings, security, etc. Yes, even an internet bank has to have physical infrastructure somewhere. Heck, why am I going to spend $3 for a SafeBank iPhone app when I can access…

He also failed to address fractional reserve banking. Many of the big banks, which are shareholders of the Federal Reserve, are able to loan out money they really don't have due to fractional reserve banking.

Also, the Federal Reserve is neither a federal agency nor does it have any reserves. It is owned and operated by the banks, which are able to game the system and this gives them an advantage over you and I.

Re: Starting a Bank

#59
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>SafeBank would maintain a reserve level 2-3x higher than Fed requirements and any other bank. Which, for the record, isn't full-reserve (the legal limit is 900% leveraging... i.e., if I deposit $10, the bank can loan $90 off of that). He'd still be loaning out money he doesn't have, and he'd still be able to generate revenue from that. In the case of full-reserve banking, you can still make money. You may not be abl…

You're referring to a simplified description of the effect of a 10% reserve requirement on the money supply. If you deposit $10 into a transaction account, the bank may lend $9 of that (not $90), and only if you assume each dollar lent is deposited into a transaction account with the same 10% reserve requirement do you get the net effect on the entire money supply (mostly through other banks) of +$100. In practice th…

Yes, that is correct, individual banks do not loan out money they do not have, but the collective system does.

And I gathered that he wants to be separate from that system and therefore not take part in fractional reserve banking.

If he were to explain in detail how he would have 2-3x more reserves than the banks and not take part in the fractional reserve banking system, he would clear up some of the confusion.

Re: Starting a Bank

#60
post #17

The problem is that his proposals ignore the economics behind banking. If you take someone's money and put it in a vault, how can you provide interest on that money? You can't. You'd, in fact, have to levy fees to cover the costs of staffing, buildings, security, etc. Yes, even an internet bank has to have physical infrastructure somewhere. Heck, why am I going to spend $3 for a SafeBank iPhone app when I can access…

"People might hate banks, but they hate people mining them for data potentially more." Matt clearly mentions that selling accurate consumer data as one of the ways to generate revenue. It's not any worse than the current situation. Aren't banks already mining consumer data? Safebank could possibly be a more ethical alternative. BTW, credit unions charge fees like overdraft fees, wire transfer fees etc., only they cha…

This is a very interesting topic, but I feel he really doesn't understand banking for a number of reasons and this is one of them.

The banks mine tons of data and use it to make profit off of you and I in more ways than you could imagine.

I find finance and technology fascinating, but the idea of a good citizen bank is very wishful thinking.

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