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An open letter on feminism in tech

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Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#181

Post by protomyth »

mreiland wrote: post #96
[deleted] wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Native American, male. I was supposed to be White wasn't I? I wonder how many Native American's there are in our industry... actually I lied, I don't care tbh. Why don't you ask about the 100% female company I contract with, or how that doesn't bother me even if it should. edit: for those that are curious, the deleted post was someone who claimed to be a caucasian female asking for my gender and race, and hinting str…

"Native American, male."

The one racial group in the US that has to prove it by enrollment in a tribe and blood quota.

// grew up on reservation, only 1/8

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#182

Post by _bfhp »

mreiland wrote: post #177
lhnz wrote: post #75

>> We are not the 'nice feminists' of this community. > Being nice doesn’t work. We’ve been nice. In this article you were actually all nice and I read right to the bottom. I certainly do find it a lot easier to listen to and agree with people that aren't spilling hatred at me. I never want to feel like I'm giving time to somebody trying to extract some psychological harm as revenge on my gender - whether or not they…

>I don't think all men are out to get you. I also don't think there's a huge misogyny problem in the industry in comparison to some other industries and cultures I've mixed with. (Perhaps my bad luck.) This is my opinion from listening to the perspectives of the people around me and watching their behaviour around women. However I do think we have a significant diversity problem and that it's altering the interaction…

There's no such thing as the "male gender" ('male' refers to sex). You have a bias. For one thing, it's your years of socializaton as a boy and now a (young?) man. Understanding what feminists are trying to say takes work. You haven't done enough work yet. No one in 2014 is saying that it's terrible that you're male.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#183

Post by srpablo »

swombat wrote: post #21
optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

I have seen it once, in one of my employees. I fired him. I still don't like the ultra-feminist movement though. Hate doesn't achieve much good.

I also hate things that are made up.

http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=341

Most people who feel animosity to feminists are attacking a caricature of them that can't be said to meaningfully exist. It also usually involves a misclassification of anger at a bad situation with 'hate.'

The fact that you can read something like this article and connect it to anything hateful, let alone angry (it's not either) shows why many feminists get frustrated even talking about inequality: people aren't listening to what's being said, their demonstrating faulty thinking and prejudices, often while denying they exist.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#184

Post by forgottenpass »

optimusclimb wrote: post #55
forgottenpass wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I've been out of college for about 6 years now. The worst I even encountered professionally was a joke shared in a group of 3 or 4 dudes about women drivers. I remember it well because it was so incongruous with everything else I've seen. Ther…

> I hear about more harassment towards the women I'm friends with after any given night of drinking at bars than the total I've ever heard from them about work. Do you mean from men at bars in general? Or are you talking about when they're out with coworkers/other people in the industry?

I mean randoms on the way to/from/at a bar. Yeah, there are co-workers and other people in the industry around, but we also go drinking with a bunch of teachers too. They're not the problem.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#185

Post by stackcollision »

minikites wrote: post #81
arzugula wrote: post #43

> Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, and that we want to be treated as equals. Don’t let someone else pretend otherwise out of their own misguided notions. So what do we call the feminists who work to suppress research that shows gender symmetry in domestic violence? What do we call the feminists who demonize men as rapists, deadbeats, child molesters, and abusers? What do we call the feminists who…

It's disappointing that you think advances in rights for women have to come at the expense of men.

I knew a feminist in high school who wanted to photocopy my draft papers so she could sign up too. Definitely not legal, but she was absolutely adamant that if men and women were to be equal, women should have to defend the country too.

Feminism is about equality, when it's done right. Unfortunately, it's been perverted into "down with the patriarchy". We call those people "Feminazis".

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#186

Post by platz »

baddox wrote: post #132
sequoia wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why you appear not to believe them (I can't know your beliefs I can only guess based off the text of your comment): 1. Has any man here "heard of, or come into contact with any of" any of this behavior? 2. Personally, "I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth..."* These statements suggest strong skepticism. Analogy: "Has anyone here actually experienced or come into…

I tend to think that skepticism is a good thing.

skepticism is a killer for minorities.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#187

Post by beat »

FD3SA wrote: post #89

Such a fascinating article. Let's break this post down: - Anecdotes used for evidence (check) - Moral outrage declared (check) - Call to arms based on emotion (check) - Appeal to baseless fanatical ideology (check) - Vilification of a massive segment of the population as homogeneous villians (check) There really appears to be a massive disconnect between very high intelligence and the ability to accurately observe th…

- And how do you get evidence without anecdotes?

- If true, should we not be morally outraged?

- If true, should we not be emotional? Should there not be a call to arms?

- (expletive deleted)

- Are men truly treated homogeneously in this article?

- Is every opinion you don't like stupid and/or irrational?

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#188

Post by mrgn »

optimusclimb wrote: post #97
optimusclimb wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the links. A question - Do you think (or have any information) on if this is particularly worse in tech, than in other industries?

@danilocampos - I think it matters for getting to a solution. If there's something inherent in tech, or its male work force that makes the problem worse, then knowing that might help get at the root of the problem a little faster.

Comparing the relative severity of any injustice or crime doesn't help solve it.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#189

Post by platz »

mreiland wrote: post #42
steveklabnik wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You bring up an interesting point, which is visibility. All of this stuff absolutely happens, but a _lot_ of it goes unreported. This leads to a situation where if you're 'on the inside,' you see and hear about it all the time. If you're not, then you don't. Generally, when I say "women have informal networks where they share stories of abuse to help other women be cautious around certain actors", there are two react…

There is also confirmation bias.

Also, the natural tenancy for those with an engineering mindset to subject all things to skepticism, is a problem for minorities, and partly due to the visibility problem you mentioned.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#190

Post by anuleczka »

fred_durst wrote: post #130

Sometimes I feel like there are people that confuse just being a jerk in general, with being a jerk specifically to women. In this industry I've met a lot of really great people, and unfortunately a ton of arrogant, egotistical, pretentious and aggressive jerks. I've felt like crap being around those people tons of times. Sometimes they say mean things about women, sometimes about liberals or republicans or people fr…

That's the thing, though. By promoting a more feminist, egalitarian, diverse culture for tech, we by definition eliminate the jerks. Why do we have to take as a given that we have to take the jerks along with the money?
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