An open letter on feminism in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#141

Post by _bfhp » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:18 PM UTC

danilocampos wrote: post #90

_bfhp wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"this is one of the more thoughtful pieces i've read on the issue" is bull shit. I'm male and even I can figure this out. Do you see what you're doing here? Do you even realize? Your comment reads: "THESE women are actually thoughtful, not like those bra-burning man-hating diatribes that I've come across from those crazy women in tech. If only all women were this calm and docile when talking about this subject." Mayb…

Um, or it could be that this is just pretty well done, as a result of multiple voices contributing and the hard work of Shanley Kane as editor.

If OP had just said that, I wouldn't have said anything.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#142

Post by ddoolin » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:19 PM UTC

Tycho wrote: post #139

dominotw wrote: post #16

Just a side note this site is run by a person who thinks "This is NOT unrelated to the fact that YCombinator built Hacker News, a platform that has consistently terrorized women in tech for years." https://twitter.com/shanley/status/460566412226883584

I remember reading through that account's tweets when pg was accused of saying teenage girls can't code or something. Thought the author was pretty despicable. No surprise there was no apology or retraction when the full context / truth of that interview was revealed a few days later.

I followed it for a few weeks/months previously. The amount of hate she attempts to stir up is insane. That's exactly why I'm not interested in participating in this discourse 99% of the time.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#143

Post by hkmurakami » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:20 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #133

hkmurakami wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't they get that exposure during university though? I certainly had long-held views challenged and changed during my time in college, where I was exposed to a much larger spectrum of the population compared to my predominantly Caucasian, upper-middle class upbringing.* * I briefly attended a UK postgraduate institution.

Oxbridge still has gender segregated colleges, though (I think) they are a minority of colleges now.

Was at Cambridge. There are no male-only colleges and two (iirc) female only colleges. Can't speak for Oxford, but I suspect a similar situation.

That being said, I'm not sure what the gender ratios are at the historically all male colleges. Perhaps they are not close to 50:50 (apparently this is the case with US business schools, where the ratios are often 65:35, and often have a bro/fratty feel to them)

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#144

Post by jberryman » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:21 PM UTC

escape_goat wrote: post #91

I am going to convey my experience of reading this, in the hopes that it might be helpful. The message that I get from this essay is as follows. "We are angry with the way we are treated as women, by men. We are angry with the way we see other women being treated by men. Even though you might not personally have treated us like this, we know that you are a man, like other men, and we hold you responsible for what has…

I think your reaction is really interesting and honest. And isn't part of the problem that we can't really solve this problem or come to real understanding by way of open letters and blog posts? Which is not to say that this article or this discussion isn't useful, but I find when you talk in person all the sort of "point-winning" and defensive reactions and misunderstandings get dispensed with extremely quickly.

And that's unfortunate because we're all so plugged in and used to doing great things and solving problems by way of posts, uploads, and comment threads. Just some off-the-cuff thoughts as well.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#145

Post by angersock » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:21 PM UTC

sarajo wrote: post #113

mreiland wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Native American, male. I was supposed to be White wasn't I? I wonder how many Native American's there are in our industry... actually I lied, I don't care tbh. Why don't you ask about the 100% female company I contract with, or how that doesn't bother me even if it should. edit: for those that are curious, the deleted post was someone who claimed to be a caucasian female asking for my gender and race, and hinting str…

I deleted as it wasn't a useful conversation either way.

Aaaand your lack of foresight makes both you and your gender/orientation/race look worse, and helps mean that the next time somebody tries to bring this up as a valid concern they'll be taken a bit less seriously.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#146

Post by FD3SA » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:22 PM UTC

_bfhp wrote: post #118

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #24

One thing that no one seems to address in these discussions (of which at least one appears every week) is how will feminism actually solve these problems? Actually, I'd like to address this paragraph: Feminism is not a dirty word. Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, and that we want to be treated as equals. Don’t let someone else pretend otherwise out of their own misguided notions. The author(s) re…

"sex-positivity versus sex-negativity and transgender inclusion versus transgender exclusion" Presenting a biased view to an audience new to a subject is dishonest. You're using selected terms to groom the readers to the side with the "schools of thought" you agree with. I could use the terms "neoliberalism verses class analysis and genderism verses gender criticism" and we'd still be referring to the same things. Of…

He's giving "feminism" far more respect than it's due. Empirically, it is a baseless ideology on par with Astrology, but far more sinister because of its political and economic consequences.

In the real world, the study of human behavior resides within the realm of evolutionary biology, with a focus on evolutionary psychology. The empirical principles that govern human behavior are fascinating and complex, but are well understood within the coherent framework of evolutionary biology.

"Feminism", and all of its post-modern counterparts are pseudo-intellectual nonsense promulgated by fanatics.

But don't take my word for it, here's just one expert's opinion [1].

1. http://edge.org/memberbio/helena_cronin

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#147

Post by IsaacSchlueter » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:23 PM UTC

optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

Male here. Yes. Many many times. If anything, this is a very conservative report.

I'm guessing that you've seen it, too. Probably you didn't notice it, because it wasn't directed at you, and everyone in the room was also pretending it didn't happen.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#148

Post by _bfhp » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:25 PM UTC

FD3SA wrote: post #146

_bfhp wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"sex-positivity versus sex-negativity and transgender inclusion versus transgender exclusion" Presenting a biased view to an audience new to a subject is dishonest. You're using selected terms to groom the readers to the side with the "schools of thought" you agree with. I could use the terms "neoliberalism verses class analysis and genderism verses gender criticism" and we'd still be referring to the same things. Of…

He's giving "feminism" far more respect than it's due. Empirically, it is a baseless ideology on par with Astrology, but far more sinister because of its political and economic consequences. In the real world, the study of human behavior resides within the realm of evolutionary biology, with a focus on evolutionary psychology. The empirical principles that govern human behavior are fascinating and complex, but are we…

You're incorrect. Except maybe about postmodernism being pseudo-intellectual nonsense, in which case you would be correct only by accident.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#149

Post by mreiland » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:26 PM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #110

mreiland wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

men face the exact same issues. It's akin to women complaining that they have to purchase gasoline in order to make it to work daily. So do men, why is that something the women are rallying around?

If men and women face the same issues, and women are working towards fixing those issues, I'm not sure why you're so upset. Isn't that positive?

I think the travesty is how quickly you choose to mis-characterize me as being upset for no other reason than the idea that I disagree with you.

Can we be more honest than that?

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#150

Post by hkmurakami » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:27 PM UTC

mbillie1 wrote: post #86

optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

Yes, as a white male I see it constantly. I worked for what I would consider one of the best for women in tech (ThoughtWorks) and even there you see this stuff. So much more in other places. > Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys. If anything, I feel like if any of us was pulled aside by a female co-worker and she described shenanigans of the sort I read about in these articles, we'd proba…

And reading articles like this (as much as our initial inclination may be to avoid looking at them) makes us reflect on the ways that we as decent, upstanding guys have missed the mark in the past.

I've seen/heard of harassment'ish inappropriate comments made by a colleague and let it go unreported. Didn't even talk to the guy in person in private to subtly suggest that his behavior may be making our female colleagues uncomfortable. I made various subconscious excuses to myself for being a bystander, and by doing so I was contributing to the prolongation of the problem.

Even if you place the 'me' of today in the shoes of myself back then, I'm not confident that I'd be able to stand up for my female colleagues for all the reasons that both men and women typically give for just letting things slide. I'm honestly ashamed of this fact, and hope I can slowly be more courageous in this regard.