An open letter on feminism in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#121

Post by wwweston » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:10 PM UTC

_bfhp wrote: post #71

sama wrote: post #34

this is one of the more thoughtful pieces i've read on the issue. it's obvious to anyone really paying attention the tech industry (and probably most other industries) has been extremely unfair to women. writing like this--clear on the problem and supportive of people who want to help--is important, but it's also important to remember that we all collectively have to act to actually change things.

"this is one of the more thoughtful pieces i've read on the issue" is bull shit. I'm male and even I can figure this out. Do you see what you're doing here? Do you even realize? Your comment reads: "THESE women are actually thoughtful, not like those bra-burning man-hating diatribes that I've come across from those crazy women in tech. If only all women were this calm and docile when talking about this subject." Mayb…

Disallowing people from having/expressing an opinion as to how helpful/thoughtful a piece is -- particularly a positive opinion -- seems as problematic as disallowing some pieces.

Maybe it's better to just let people express it when something resonates with them.

(And while any judgment on how thoughtful a piece is probably subjective, it seems unlikely that every piece is equivalent in how broadly it leads people think about issues in a helpful way.)

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#122

Post by smokeyj » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:10 PM UTC

My only questions is why we're making bullying a gender issue. Bullying affects boys and girls from childhood, and learning how to deal with bullies seems like a gender agnostic issue. But maybe that's my privilege speaking..

Edit: Maybe I seem dismissive of the issue, but I'm really not. I just feel like there's a core problem here that has been incubating since the recess playground. I don't think people turn into bullies over night, rather they've grown to accept their role as aggressors due to never being confronted, and consequently grow even more empowered.

What we're witnessing as adults is what we see on the school yard. Everyone can see that the bully is a jerk, but everyone passively goes along with the flow. Why? Fear of retaliation and ostracization. Maybe everyone will think you're a looser for sticking up for the other looser. You want to be in the cool club so keep your mouth shut. Anyways, that's my two cents.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#123

Post by lotsofmangos » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:10 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #16

Just a side note this site is run by a person who thinks "This is NOT unrelated to the fact that YCombinator built Hacker News, a platform that has consistently terrorized women in tech for years." https://twitter.com/shanley/status/460566412226883584

Even folk on 4chan have commented that hacker-news is a bit unreasonable to women.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#124

Post by zo1 » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:11 PM UTC

minikites wrote: post #81

arzugula wrote: post #43

> Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, and that we want to be treated as equals. Don’t let someone else pretend otherwise out of their own misguided notions. So what do we call the feminists who work to suppress research that shows gender symmetry in domestic violence? What do we call the feminists who demonize men as rapists, deadbeats, child molesters, and abusers? What do we call the feminists who…

It's disappointing that you think advances in rights for women have to come at the expense of men.

It's disappointing that they had to do that at all. Equality can be achieved without bashing anyone.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#125

Post by ankey1 » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:11 PM UTC

Ma8ee wrote: post #99

anildash wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You read the story of a range of women from across the industry, said you haven't had the experience these women have had, and then explicitly asked men for their opinions. See if you can figure out the bug here. * "We have this problem with our iOS app." * "I use Android and have never seen this. Any other Android users encounter this?"

Many women ask that more men would stand up for them. I think that many men would if they actually saw something occur, but many just don't see anything. In my own career I have only once seen anything that even looked like harassment or discrimination, and that was almost 20 years ago. It does not mean that I question these women's experiences, but I do think it means that the "bullies" know that what they do isn't…

Woman developer here. That's the one piece of advice I give to men who ask what they can do to help. I've had way more men come to me privately after an incident to apologize for being a witness and saying nothing than have actively stepped in to stop what was going on. I wish it were the other way around.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#126

Post by baddox » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:11 PM UTC

sequoia wrote: post #78

optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? Why do you need a "male reader" to confirm this to you? Your question reads thus: 'I can't believe this if I only hear it from a woman-- is there a man in the audience who can confirm this?' To turn it around a bit, why do you find these stories unbelievable & why do you need a man…

> Your question reads thus: 'I can't believe this if I only hear it from a woman-- is there a man in the audience who can confirm this?'

I think it's more like "I would find it odd, though not impossible, for only women to have observed these things."

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#127

Post by arzugula » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:12 PM UTC

minikites wrote: post #81

arzugula wrote: post #43

> Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, and that we want to be treated as equals. Don’t let someone else pretend otherwise out of their own misguided notions. So what do we call the feminists who work to suppress research that shows gender symmetry in domestic violence? What do we call the feminists who demonize men as rapists, deadbeats, child molesters, and abusers? What do we call the feminists who…

It's disappointing that you think advances in rights for women have to come at the expense of men.

Unfortunately it is feminism that tells us this through their rhetoric that demonizes men and their actions of lobbying for legislation that subjugates men.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#128

Post by angersock » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:12 PM UTC

agentultra wrote: post #48

optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

> Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? Yes. White, privileged male. I was attending Pycon 2013 in Santa, Clara. I had just spent the lunch hour with a good friend and his acquaintance, X. As we were leaving X decided it was an appropriate time to quietly share his views about women in tech with me. I was mortified at that moment and promptly exited the conversa…

"promptly exited the conversation without addressing X's comments to me."

I understand that it can be difficult, but we all need to speak up in circumstances like these.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#129

Post by mercurial » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:12 PM UTC

_bfhp wrote: post #71

sama wrote: post #34

this is one of the more thoughtful pieces i've read on the issue. it's obvious to anyone really paying attention the tech industry (and probably most other industries) has been extremely unfair to women. writing like this--clear on the problem and supportive of people who want to help--is important, but it's also important to remember that we all collectively have to act to actually change things.

"this is one of the more thoughtful pieces i've read on the issue" is bull shit. I'm male and even I can figure this out. Do you see what you're doing here? Do you even realize? Your comment reads: "THESE women are actually thoughtful, not like those bra-burning man-hating diatribes that I've come across from those crazy women in tech. If only all women were this calm and docile when talking about this subject." Mayb…

> Do you see what you're doing here? Do you even realize? Your comment reads: "THESE women are actually thoughtful, not like those bra-burning man-hating diatribes that I've come across from those crazy women in tech. If only all women were this calm and docile when talking about this subject." Maybe that wasn't the precise thoughts behind it, but it comes off as that condescending to everyone (particularly the women) who don't fit to your standards. You are saying "if you're going to talk about gender in tech, or even gender at all, be like these women or I don't care/you're crazy."

You're completely projecting here. Parent's post really doesn't read like that. You even quote words it doesn't have (unless it has been edited) like "reasonable" when it says "thoughtful", which is really not the same thing at all.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#130

Post by fred_durst » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:12 PM UTC

Sometimes I feel like there are people that confuse just being a jerk in general, with being a jerk specifically to women.

In this industry I've met a lot of really great people, and unfortunately a ton of arrogant, egotistical, pretentious and aggressive jerks. I've felt like crap being around those people tons of times.

Sometimes they say mean things about women, sometimes about liberals or republicans or people from India or making fun of someone's Github pull request to an open source project. I've heard things that smell of Social Darwinism. All kinds of junk. But all of it seems to come from the same jerks. It doesn't seem like there is like the "I hate women" jerk and the "Stupid people deserve poverty" etc. It seems like most hateful jerks just hate everyone.

It seems in tech, people's positions in companies are very much based on a particular skill or having a bunch of money. And very little to do with whether or not they are a jerk. So maybe this is just that we end up with a higher concentration of general jerks? Also, right now this industry is where the money is, and that always has a tendency to up the jerk ratio as well.