Live data from Hacker News

An open letter on feminism in tech

modelviewculture.com

21–30 of 335 posts

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#21

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

I have seen it once, in one of my employees. I fired him.

I still don't like the ultra-feminist movement though. Hate doesn't achieve much good.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#22

Just a side note this site is run by a person who thinks "This is NOT unrelated to the fact that YCombinator built Hacker News, a platform that has consistently terrorized women in tech for years." https://twitter.com/shanley/status/460566412226883584

Ironically I bet they would not consider that statement hateful or hyperbolic. I bet the next tweet was something like "Why don't people want to identify as Feminist?"

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#23
post #17

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

As another guy in tech I share your experiences. I have never witnessed anything like what was described in that article and I have been working in tech for around 10 years now in a very diverse workplace. I also know of at least 1 woman who if she was a man would have been fired long ago yet she stays on because managers are basically afraid to fire her. I'm not saying these problems don't exist, I just find it hard…

You are responding to a bug report on one platform by saying that you cannot reproduce it on another.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#24
One thing that no one seems to address in these discussions (of which at least one appears every week) is how will feminism actually solve these problems?

Actually, I'd like to address this paragraph:

Feminism is not a dirty word. Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, and that we want to be treated as equals. Don’t let someone else pretend otherwise out of their own misguided notions.

The author(s) repeat a very common cliche, and insist on this as the one true definition of feminism. Yet in reality, feminism is splintered, divided into many schools, disagrees on fundamental issues (sex-positivity versus sex-negativity and transgender inclusion versus transgender exclusion, most notably) and is not a coherent movement. The same applies for virtually all ideologies.

Some will repeat that quote, some will say "gender equality", others will go for "women's liberation", "abolition of X concept considered problematic", "separatism" or a variety of other reasons.

Which school do we adopt? Why? How will it change things? Is feminism really that seamless of an ideology that it is the one true way to fix things?

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#25

I appreciate the authors taking the time to write this (unfortunately this HN comment page emphasizes the uphill climb ahead). But there's one thing in particular I, selfishly, appreciated them addressing: "Does this mean we’re going to get angry at you if you try to help and get it wrong?" This fear was something that kept me from speaking out for many years. I'm a guy in tech and I want to see change occur but I'm…

Compare that with http://jacobian.org/writing/what-can-men-do/ , which is linked to in the OP in which he criticizes Jeff Atwood for doing it wrong. So wrong that he won't even link to him, even though he acknowledges that his intentions are good.

Edited to fix pronoun.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#26

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

You read the story of a range of women from across the industry, said you haven't had the experience these women have had, and then explicitly asked men for their opinions. See if you can figure out the bug here. * "We have this problem with our iOS app." * "I use Android and have never seen this. Any other Android users encounter this?"

Anil - I'd have expected a bit less snarky of tone from someone so public, but I'll try and answer you anyway:

Yes, I asked other males what they've seen. You can't change reality. Our industry is about as male as the army. I could probably have counted the females in my computer science program back in college on one hand.

I'm just wondering if it really all is as behind closed doors/hidden as is implied, or perhaps I just haven't come across it. People talk. They meet up in bars. I hear all sorts of things from other people in the industry over FrieNDA - though I really haven't heard many stories like these.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#27
[Quick prefatory update: HN's throttling algorithm has decided, on the basis of five comments counting this one over the space of the last hour, that I'm "submitting too fast". It'll therefore be a fair while before I am able to respond to the replies I confidently expect this post to provoke.]

You know, at base, I think this is a class issue.

No, I don't mean in the Marxist sense, so all you libertarians who're even now clearing for action and double-shotting your broadsides, hold off a minute and finish reading first.

I mean it's a class issue in the sense that acting like the assholes these women have found themselves forced to put up with, throughout their careers in our industry, is stigmatic of a complete lack of class.

Our industry, after all, revolves around a profession. We arrogate unto ourselves the title of "engineer", despite the complete lack of licensure or regulation commensurate with every other industry whose professionals bear that title. It is therefore incumbent upon us to behave in accordance with our pretensions -- and especially so, I'd argue, given the relative lack of rigor which characterizes our industry as a whole.

Now, maybe I'm just an effete, precious little snowflake. But I have absolutely no desire to associate with people who behave in the fashions described in the open letter published by Manian et al., and in a thousand other places, by a thousand other women, who are themselves remarkable among their fellows in our industry only in that they're courageous enough to tell their stories -- despite the excoriation they know full well will come their way in response -- in hopes of provoking change.

Such people lack class. They lack taste and refinement. If nothing else, they lack the basic good sense to recognize unprofessional behavior in themselves, and to acknowledge the solid reasons why the constraints of professionalism exist at all.

Speaking of which: I've recently participated in a couple of HN discussions around the topic of office politics. From them I have gleaned the impression that a lot of engineers consider office politicking to be something which just gets in the way of getting the job done, and is undesirable therefore.

To engineers who share that opinion, I point out that what we're talking about here also gets in the way. Unless you're willing to declare flat out that women have nothing to offer the industry, or unless you prefer to imagine that the women who've described maltreatment at the hands of their supposedly professional male peers are just lying out of some conspiratorial urge or other, I don't see how you can evaluate this situation any other way.

Anyone who reviews my comment history on HN will recognize quickly enough that I have no particular fondness for feminism as a movement, or for feminist theory, much of which strikes me as ill-argued and overly reliant on an axiomatic infrastructure which is not so sturdy as its proponents seem to believe. Worse, by the lights of feminism per se, someone like Adria Richards, who reacted to a vaguely tasteless joke in so spectacularly ill-considered fashion as to end up getting three people fired, has no cause for reproach.

On the other hand, I see no reason why it's necessary to have any fondness at all for either of those things, when the problem, at its base, is that there are too many assholes in our industry with no sense of how to behave. It's not a question of "how to treat a woman", as though that were some sort of magical separate category. None of the shit we're talking about here is anything you'd be inclined to put up with for one minute, if anyone directed it at you. That it's directed almost universally at women, instead, makes no difference. These behaviors, in themselves, are utterly unacceptable in any even remotely professional context. That they're so widespread in our industry -- indeed, that they're suffered to exist at all in our industry, to say nothing of the degree to which they're actually tolerated -- gives every one of us a bad name.

I don't like that. I refuse to tolerate the company of the people who are responsible for it. I'm not looking to start a movement; I'd be crap at it and there are already far too many of those to begin with. I'm just looking to see those of us in the industry who do have class, who do have taste, behave accordingly with regard to those who don't.

No doubt some of them will realize why they've been excluded, and will learn better. Great! That's what ostracism is for. If they can show they know how to behave themselves like grown adults, they're welcome to join those of us who never needed remedial education on the subject to begin with.

And, equally without doubt, some of them will never figure it out, and, like MRAs, MGTOWs, and others who prefer abandoning society over learning to interact with it, will grow bitter in their increasingly self-inflicted solitude. Those, we're better off without, and to hell with them.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#29
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another guy in tech I share your experiences. I have never witnessed anything like what was described in that article and I have been working in tech for around 10 years now in a very diverse workplace. I also know of at least 1 woman who if she was a man would have been fired long ago yet she stays on because managers are basically afraid to fire her. I'm not saying these problems don't exist, I just find it hard…

You are responding to a bug report on one platform by saying that you cannot reproduce it on another.

A bug report with no evidence or sources making claims that cannot be verified by the readers. I could just as easily say I am being terrorized by my Female boss and shut down any women who disagree using your argument.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#30

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

You read the story of a range of women from across the industry, said you haven't had the experience these women have had, and then explicitly asked men for their opinions. See if you can figure out the bug here. * "We have this problem with our iOS app." * "I use Android and have never seen this. Any other Android users encounter this?"

When you understand why you dismiss my viewpoint so easily, you'll understand why I dismiss yours with the same ease.
Post reply on HN