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US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

bbc.co.uk

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Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#51

I taught high school physics for a semester and the math abilities of these students (many considered top students) were abysmal. Somehow several of these students had received As and Bs in Algebra 2 but were unable to transform f = ma into a = f/m. They also had a very flawed understanding of how to solve quadratics. I later realized that the issue is that mathematics is often taught as procedural. Students are taug…

Well, surely more standardized testing will fix that right up.

If there is a better way to evaluate educational systems and educators, then it should become the minimum standard. I.e., it would still be "standardized testing". I don't know why that phrase became a thought-terminating cliché.

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#53

In the US, the quality of your math education is determined by where you live on the community level, usually by property value. Within 10 miles, you can have both a school that performs on par with Sweden and another that performs on par with Turkey. What does this mean? Things are way worse for the poor here than this study even acknowledges. If you're poor in America, your best chance at a good education is by raf…

I totally agree and am depressed that places like inner cities have such a hard time getting more charter schools and competition that would give these kids and their families a shot at a decent education. Is it politics? Teachers unions? Getting good admin people? What's holding back these places from getting ahead? As a comparison, my sister lives on the outskirts of a large metro area and their school has been tea…

Yeah, let's robo-blame the unions, that will inject some magic Ayn Rand juice into things and make everything better real quick. Sure.

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#54
post #39

I taught high school physics for a semester and the math abilities of these students (many considered top students) were abysmal. Somehow several of these students had received As and Bs in Algebra 2 but were unable to transform f = ma into a = f/m. They also had a very flawed understanding of how to solve quadratics. I later realized that the issue is that mathematics is often taught as procedural. Students are taug…

I remember when I 'got' algebra. I was in 10th grade in Chem class. We were using mols = (mols/Volume)*Volume. For weeks, I had no idea what was going on. I just plain did not understand algebra whatsoever. But finally, at the end of a lab class where we actually mixed things and then found the concentrations and volumes, I finally figured out that these algebraic equations actually tied back into the real world. Thi…

I was also a very poor math student in HS that went on to get a physics degree. I can say that it was the method of instruction as well as my own lack of motivation. Classes were boring and easy to pass even if you did not know the material. In my state you needed a 2.0 GPA to get into a state school. This is generally doable for even the worst students.

The lack of real consequences for not studying and doing homework played a huge role in my childhood academic experiences. I am often baffled when I hear reports of students who are over stressed by the requirements of high school academics. The standards seem now to be even lower than when I was in school yet students constantly complain that they can't keep up. It's mind boggling.

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#55
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its our job to teach our own kids, if the govt cant do anything because of all the naysayers and doubters then its left to upon the parents. My parents challenged me in Math at a young age and I was always a step ahead in school. Also as a nation we need to stop putting everyone on the same playing field. Students will always be left behind lets start focusing on programs that will help the smart and the chal…

That's not helpful for any kids whose parents are bad at math. You're condemning them to a lifetime of ignorance because of their parents' deficiencies.

Tutors, I used them in college once I left my parents house. You can find free tutors on most college campuses for challenging subjects, Math Chemistry etc.

If you are still in high school you can find many online resources to help, Youtube Kahn Academy etc...

Just because you are bad at something doesn't mean you cant find someone to help your kid whether its a relative, neighbor, tutor or old teacher.

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#56
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with that. Wealth in this country is in no way correlated to math ability.

Do you have any direct evidence of this? I ask because it is well known that math ability is correlated with educational achievement, and level of education is known to be correlated with income. Putting these two together, I would suppose that math ability is correlated with income.

I'm not saying that greater math ability doesn't correlate to greater wealth. That could very well be true (and it probably is). What I meant was that the public school system is funded by tax dollars. Wealthier neighborhoods contribute more tax money and have better public schools. I obviously don't have any direct evidence, but I would sat there's almost no correlation to wealthy neighborhoods and their residents being good at math. If you don't believe me, we could go knock on every door in my parents' neighborhood and ask them what they got on their SAT math section :P

Joking aside, I'm basing that on the fact that not every high-paying job requires math skills, and not every rich person got rich because of math.

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could this be explained in part by people who are good at math tending to make more money than people who are bad at math? http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/research/2...

It has nothing to do with that. Wealth in this country is in no way correlated to math ability.

[deleted]

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#58
post #8

I think the thing that distresses me the most is that any attempt that has been made to alleviate the situation (like the common core) has been stamped "big government" by people who seem to _not_ understand the urgency of this situation. I'm out of ideas. What do we do? EDIT: added a not. Wow did that change what I meant to say.

One size fits all is surely the answer.

Mathematics is one of those few areas where there is only one right answer to most problems. You can have different methods of arriving at that answer, but in many cases one method is optimal and can be proven as such.

Mathematics isn't cultural. Numbers and the laws that govern them aren't going to change in response to how people feel about them or who is teaching them. I fail to see the benefit of working without objective criteria in this domain.

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#59

In the US, the quality of your math education is determined by where you live on the community level, usually by property value. Within 10 miles, you can have both a school that performs on par with Sweden and another that performs on par with Turkey. What does this mean? Things are way worse for the poor here than this study even acknowledges. If you're poor in America, your best chance at a good education is by raf…

I think the interesting thing was even middle class kids demonstrated poor performance too. The problem us spread wider across the distribution rather than abysmal performance by a minority such so that it pulled down the average (to me, that never really made sense in my intuition).

I definitely agree. There are some high-performing schools but they're a minority. There's also a minority of very, very low performing schools.

What makes us unusual is how wide the spectrum is, even if the average is bad.

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#60
I read all the comments kindly posted here before mine, and then I read the fine submitted article. Here I will link to the study "Not Just the Problems of Other People's Children: U.S. Student Performance in Global Perspective"[1] that underlies the news report submitted here. The full study report will of course give you details that a brief news report has no space to provide. It's good to read a news report from British journalists about education issues here in the United States, as the British journalists are less likely to hand-wave away concerns about United States educational performance.

As a response to some comments here, I'll note that I have lived in east Asia (I am a proficient speaker and reader of Chinese as a second language, and have lived in Taiwan during two three-year stays since I became an adult) and can verify that the schools there generally do a better job teaching mathematics (and also second languages) than the schools in the United States, at less expense per student. That efficiency in primary and secondary education lets both students who go on to higher education and students enter the workforce after secondary education achieve more in their adult pursuits than many Americans. Children there have childhoods with play and fun, but then they get to grow up to be adults with actual skills for advancing themselves.

For comparative rankings of different countries, showing how many more students in some countries reach high levels of mathematics achievement by eighth grade, see the very well constructed data chart "Distribution of Mathematics Achievement" for eighth graders in Exhibit 1.2 of Chapter 1 of the TIMSS report from the 2011 testing round.[2]

This issue is familiar to Americans like me who have lived overseas and have learned the local language of another country and have read the math textbooks available there. Better instruction can produce better educational results--and for less money besides. The top student issue is illustrated also by results from the International Mathematical Olympiad[3] and other international academic competitions. The United States has a huge population base, and it has many families in which the children are brought up by parents who are first-generation immigrants who received their own primary and secondary educations in other countries. (Such children do conspicuously well in academic competitions in the United States.) And the United States is wealthy, a heritage from the good governance structure set up by the United States federal Constitution. But even at that, the United States national team can be beat at the International Mathematical Olympiad by countries that have many fewer people and much poorer economies. Some countries have a very impressive group of top students.

[1] http://www.hks.harvard.edu/pepg/PDF/Papers/PEPG14-01_NotJust...

[2] http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/timss2011/downloads/T11_IR_M_Cha...

[3] http://www.imo-official.org/

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