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Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#181

Post by mtrimpe »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #129
mtrimpe wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for trying something unfamiliar, and I could even argue for Haskell that way, but from a different angle. I would say that adopting a language for the next 10 years that doesn't have purely functional data structures at its core is a fool's errand. Persistent data structures, i.e. efficiently storing every version of your data structure, is the natural reflection of the new reality in computing where: * stora…

Persistent structures are almost always O log N (because they have to be trees). You can fix your branch out for better performance at the cost of more wasted space. You will never be as fast as an array. Also, sometimes you want your updates to a data structure to be seen via an alias (happens often actually), then we are back at square one again. Systems people are much more pragmatic about this: they see the trend…

At n=32 the performance costs are as negligible as dynamic typing once was (even less I'd argue.) As far as I can tell that very much puts us at the point in time where mutable state is usually a premature optimization.

Adopting it successfully does require separating essential from accidental state which naturally leads to some variant of FRP being adopted to manage (re-)derivation of accidental state; which is usually the hard to explain part.

I am wondering what you do see systems people doing by the way? I'm always interested in broadening my perspective on this.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#182

Post by falcolas »

This is incendiary advice, but if you've dropped Python due to breaking changes as you update it, you may also want to consider dropping Rails. I say this because the perception is that the Rails development goal is to stay with the bleeding edge of web development first, and support backwards compatibility second.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#183

Post by espeed »

davidw wrote: post #62

> TCL is not really web suitable (though it’s been done) I don't use Tcl (not TCL!) anymore myself, but it'd be more honest to say that it's not that popular these days or not a language you happen to like. This is built with Tcl just fine: http://flightaware.com/ With that out of the way, I think that was a good read, and a reasonable process. It's fair to be a bit subjective about some things, because... we're huma…

I spent many years with Tcl back in the ArsDigita/OpenACS days. Tcl embedded in AOLserver hummed quite well, and as Greenspun once wrote, "Hey, Tcl is just like Lisp, but without a brain, and with syntax on steroids" (http://philip.greenspun.com/tcl/introduction.adp).

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#185

Post by thomasvarney723 »

grayrest wrote: post #101
jacquesm wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boring unremarkable stuff that gets the job done sounds great to me. Sexy, new, hot, flashy are exactly what I'm trying to avoid getting sucked in to (though, believe me I can feel the draw). The life-cycle of the software underpinning what I build is as important or even more important than whether or not it is 'the best way' to do something today. Because that best way is the bleeding edge and the day after tomorro…

Your decision process isn't the same one I would have gone through* but it's rational. I was responding to the conclusion that "nothing out there is very good". * I believe that the incidental complexity in web development is rooted in state and in the interactions between various pieces of state in the app. Choosing tools and patterns that reduce state generally results in composable abstractions and more reliable s…

Do you use Om with React? If so, do you have an opinon on it vs. Backbone, Angular, etc.?

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#187

Post by tormeh »

mercurial wrote: post #145
tormeh wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but if the monads were the only problem it would be ok (for me at least). But I'm asked to learn monads while also learning this weird syntax. I'm asked to learn something I don't understand in a syntax I don't understand. It's a bit too much. Like a math lecture in which, aside from the new concepts, the lecturer has decided to replace the traditional symbols (+,-, etc) with his new and equally arbitrary ones…

Do you have a few concrete examples, out of curiosity?

Well, I basically went "fuck this" after looking at Haskell for a while, but there's surfaced some links in the comments (thanks, akavel) and they provide some examples: >>=, >>, >, , >, $, ., !!, !, , :, ::, \, @, ~, -, -> Taken together the syntax makes no effort whatsoever to be self-explanatory. I could handle it if it was the only programming language I would ever use, but in the polyglot world we live in and with my leaky bucket of a long-term memory this is not good enough.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#188

Post by marknutter »

jacquesm wrote: post #178
marknutter wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's the classic argument for yak shaving. Most if not all of the frameworks you analyzed will be more than adequate for the app you're going to build. What it should come down to is what you're comfortable with. Focus on the product you want to build, not the tools you are using to build the product.

I think I got the Yak shaving part covered with the first sentence of the post :) I'm well aware of the ups and downs of exposing myself to choice like this but I really want to get myself exposed to some real world practice with some of the top contenders here to make a more objective choice and I also feel that 'what you're comfortable with' is getting too close to unsupported that I should widen my view. Fortunate…

Well, I suppose the silver lining is that you're publishing your journey :)

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#189

Post by adamors »

ohwp wrote: post #81

When I read the introduction I immediately thought about Apache + MySQL + PHP + Symfony. ORM, templating engine, community, it's all there.

I concur, but I would swap both the database and the web server to Postgres and Nginx respectively. Symfony and the community around it is just awesome though.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#190

Post by websitescenes »

Every comment I have read so far is pushing a personal agenda and ignores the authors criteria. If we are to go by the authors desired requirements then the obvious winner is Rails. Rails is constantly being developed and maintains timeless standards while embracing new technologies.
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