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Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#151

Post by jacquesm »

stephen wrote: post #146
jacquesm wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. That's going to piss off quite a few people if google EOL's GWT and they know about it today but are not communicating it to the outside world. Google has a habit of pushing tech out for people to build on and then pulling the rug right out from under them. A citation would really help here but 'I heard' makes me realize that will probably not be forthcoming.

I know the Google GWT manager, and unless he's playing his cards very close to his chest, GWT is not EOL'd inside of Google. Google did "re-open source" GWT a few years ago, and unfortunately it coincided their (AFAIK unrelated) closing of their Atlanta office (where most of the old GWT team worked). So, it gave the impression of washing their hands of it, but in reality they a) staffed their GWT team back up to 4-5…

I think it will be a long long time before the tech community will forget about wave, that makes rumours like these so credible.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#152

Post by locusm »

Encosia wrote: post #144
locusm wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that Microsoft now require you to login with their latest IDE. The moment this will bite you in the ass depends on what license you use (retail, partner etc). If your a partner you get a rolling 30 day trial that's tied to your MS Partner account and if you've ever used the MS Partner website you know what a complete piece of shit that is. From the Partner account you assign development rights to a devel…

You can install Visual Studio 2013 with a product key instead if you prefer (that's how I have it installed on my machines currently).

I believe thats retail only.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#153

Post by marknutter »

Goodness, just pick a framework and start building. There's no way you're going to make the right choice so just choose whichever language you're most comfortable coding in and start building. Creating 12 prototypes to narrow down 12 frameworks? Does this strike anyone else as an insane waste of time?

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#154

Post by locusm »

omgtehlion wrote: post #149
locusm wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that Microsoft now require you to login with their latest IDE. The moment this will bite you in the ass depends on what license you use (retail, partner etc). If your a partner you get a rolling 30 day trial that's tied to your MS Partner account and if you've ever used the MS Partner website you know what a complete piece of shit that is. From the Partner account you assign development rights to a devel…

just buy a key and vs2013 will work offline, without login

Part of the MS Partner benefits is a 10 user VS 2013 license, this is something you buy. However it works differently to retail versions which is probably what you have.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#155

Post by syjer »

jacquesm wrote: post #140
ihaveqvestion wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was surprised too that he hadn't heard of JavaServer Faces, given that it's the One Official Web Framework of Java. I'm not sure I'd recommend it necessarily, but it's hugely popular and well-supported, so it knocks at least a couple of his criteria right out of the park.

Spring license mistake noticed (on the WP page it reads 'springsource', not apache 2.0!), as for JavaServer Faces, it may be extremely popular I just never ran into it in actual use and I see quite a few companies every year. Is it somehow associated with a branch of industry that I don't have exposure to? Do you have some examples from the 100 top websites written using JavaServer Faces? That would help me to place…

From what I know, JSF is used mostly for small to medium intranet application in the context of big enterprises.

I'm quite biased here, but the big seal of approval as the official java enterprise web framework makes it often imposed by the upper layer of the enterprise than a willing choice by the developers.

Additionally, if the enterprise is licensing a lot of oracle products, it's not surprising if they have a ADF (adf is a jsf implementation and component library) license with jdeveloper, which is trumpeted as the successor of oracle forms.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#156

Post by rubinelli »

acesubido wrote: post #115

Coming from years of .NET, a year spent with Grails and now 4 months into 'Ruby-land'. If there was a way to vote, I'd vote Rails/Ruby just Rails/Ruby isn't cool anymore, everyone moved onto NodeJS/Scala or wherever. I'm only going by experience, and I haven't been deeply involved yet. It's a good thing. By the looks of it, the community might be jaded in some way, which means no more running around trying to be the…

What made you move away from Grails? I understand the community is an order of magnitude smaller, but I've been experimenting with it recently, and it looks very solid.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#157

Post by flavor8 »

jhuckestein wrote: post #68

FWIW, I'd remove GWT from consideration. I heard that it's shortlisted for end-of-life at Google because it's a hassle to work with. Anecdotally, I agree with that. I once built a product on GWT because it impressed me so much on paper. Static typing, compiling permutations of your app and loading only what's needed, optimization of stylesheets, rendering only on the client etc. It seemed perfect. IIRC the two main i…

The move to superdevmode is the nail in the coffin for GWT for me. It has been my go-to framework for the past 5 years. I really love doing everything in Java (I don't like Javascript, don't particularly enjoy writing HTML, and find the compile time checks of the UI invaluable); some of the core components are clunky to work with, but you can easily write some component libraries that sit on top of GWT and generate elegant HTML. The killer feature is being able to debug UI code in your IDE (specifically, for me, IntelliJ). With the loss of classic dev-mode (mainly due to browsers being a moving target, and the GWT team being too small) that is no longer possible; you now have to interact with the browser's built in debugger, which is qualitatively much worse.

So, I'm on the hunt for a replacement too. It'll still be Java-centric (compiled languages ftw), probably will involve Dropwizard, and ideally will generate much of the Javascript. I don't know if that exists yet though.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#158

Post by dham »

I did this a year or so ago. Arrived at Rails. Close contender was Laravel. Rails won because of:

1. A awesome ORM 2. I could use Ruby for iOS applications(Rubymotion). 3. JRuby 4. Great for writing scripts and little one off things I needed to do. 5. Capistrano (although you can use this with any language) 6. Opal(although this really hasn't taken off yet). 7. People are actively trying to speed the language up. MRI, JRuby, Rubinius.

So I invested in Rails because of the other things I could do with Ruby in addition to web.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#159

Post by bguthrie »

goldfeld wrote: post #100
jacquesm wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boring unremarkable stuff that gets the job done sounds great to me. Sexy, new, hot, flashy are exactly what I'm trying to avoid getting sucked in to (though, believe me I can feel the draw). The life-cycle of the software underpinning what I build is as important or even more important than whether or not it is 'the best way' to do something today. Because that best way is the bleeding edge and the day after tomorro…

I was really drawn to the title of your post because that's just what I have done--well, over the last few months--and I went with Clojure. I want to absolutely focus now and I can see the momentum is gonna take me for at least the next 10 years. I never rode the Rails train and after becoming a functional programming believer I'm kinda glad I didn't in retrospect, but I had always been envious of people who did make…

I think this is a good assessment. I'm a little more bearish, though I love the language. I rode the Rails train in the past and recently embarked on a real web project with Compojure.

At first it felt like a very mixed bag. There are a number of reasonable if boring things that Rails provides that help make it easier to get your app production-ready––robust logging and asset compilation come to mind––that generally have to be hand-rolled in Compojure (as in microframeworks in other languages). More generally, there aren't many clear signposts from an architectural point of view––for example, there does not appear to be much community guidance over how to organize your namespaces, or how much code one should contain. We made some messes early on.

Once my partner and I got past the initial pain, however, we were extremely pleased with our choice. There are still times when I suspect Rails might have gotten us to market more quickly, but Clojure feels like a good ten-year choice. I certainly agree it's worth a second look.

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