I'm About as Good as Dead: The End of Xah Lee • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm About as Good as Dead: The End of Xah Lee

#211

Post by IanKelling » Fri, May 16, 2014, 3:56 PM UTC

IanKelling wrote: post #165

terhechte wrote: post #32

Xah, if you're reading this: Based on the comments on your page it is not clear whether you can or can't accept money via Paypal. Your Emacs resources have always been very helpful to me. I'd be willing to send you some money. Do you happen to have a Bitcoin address that I could send something to?

I just spoke to Xah on the phone. He does want people to donate to his paypal address. He can transfer it to someone to cash it out if needed. He will be making further updates on his site, probably later today to be clear about that. He will be looking into bitcoin also. So feel free to donate, I think at least his contributions to emacs documentation make it worthwhile.

And he has now updated the post to clarify about paypal.

Re: I'm About as Good as Dead: The End of Xah Lee

#212

Post by drivingmenuts » Fri, May 16, 2014, 3:57 PM UTC

bentcorner wrote: post #167

pekk wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is the worst, unforgivable sin (even worse than being old). It doesn't matter what you have done, if there is no corporation to witness to your ability and you do not have a fresh face. Hence "entry-level" positions requiring 5 years of experience, and yet you are unemployable forever if you don't have a job within 5 years of graduating. It might as well be law.

Is having corporate experience really that much better though? I mean, obviously working for someone for several years implies some level of competence, but your work is nearly always locked away and you can't show it off. Ideally you'd want someone who does both; working for someone, which demonstrates the ability to work on a team, while also contributing to open source and making their own content, upon which you…

Long-term corporate employment is more valuable if you're seeking corporate employment. Only a few corporations (relatively speaking) place any value on open-source project association.

Re: I'm About as Good as Dead: The End of Xah Lee

#213

Post by chaired » Fri, May 16, 2014, 3:58 PM UTC

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #42

He needs to find a social services office that can help him get organized and take care of his personal responsibilities. It's completely his fault that he's in this mess, but he probably has some kind of personal/mental health problem that requires assistance. The one thing nobody should do is simply send him money or give him a job, since there's nothing on this page that indicates he won't go back to exactly the s…

I would say the opposite. From experience, a 'social services' office will not help, but will make his life more difficult. On the other hand, genuine kindness at least has a chance.

Re: I'm About as Good as Dead: The End of Xah Lee

#214

Post by jcroll » Fri, May 16, 2014, 3:59 PM UTC

mercer wrote: post #90

Cases like this, when the talented person in question is a geek who "doesn't interview well," always frustrate me. Most of my professional success is a result of social skills and a lot of experience with wildly different social environments and cultures. While I do work hard at being actually good at what I do (because that's just more fun!), I could get pretty far as a cruddy developer. And that just feels unfair,…

Teamwork arguably trumps all skills. Many of the greatest things are accomplished by great teams (look no further than YCombinator demanding multiple founders). Social skills are a critical part of good teamwork skills and good teamwork skills will advance your career in just about any profession.

Re: I'm About as Good as Dead: The End of Xah Lee

#215

Post by chaired » Fri, May 16, 2014, 3:59 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #203

Writing is thinking and one person's philosophical pondering can be another's trolling, e.g. this post. Sure trolling is sometimes just being an asshat. But it's also a way of creating diversity. An attempt to deprogram members of a cargo cult. It can be fighting group think and ideological tribalism. I've come to think about trolling as often being an expression of a desire to write - it's very essence is writing so…

Thank you so much for writing this.

Re: I'm About as Good as Dead: The End of Xah Lee

#216

Post by indrax » Fri, May 16, 2014, 4:00 PM UTC

overgard wrote: post #110

mercer wrote: post #90

Cases like this, when the talented person in question is a geek who "doesn't interview well," always frustrate me. Most of my professional success is a result of social skills and a lot of experience with wildly different social environments and cultures. While I do work hard at being actually good at what I do (because that's just more fun!), I could get pretty far as a cruddy developer. And that just feels unfair,…

I get what you're saying, but I also tend to think: if they're so smart, why not learn some social skills? It's not like being socially awkward has to be an innate thing; they're called social skills for a reason, you can learn them. Many people were once socially awkward, and then fixed it. It's not particularly fair, but social awkwardness does tend to send a signal about what people value. And what a socially awkw…

>if they're so smart, why not learn some social skills?

If I learned social skills with the same abilities that made me smart, I wouldn't use that knowledge to interview, I would use it to build an AI.

The comparison is invalid because so far no one has learned social skills that way.

If we understand others by imagining how we ourselves would react, then the things that make it hard to learn social skills will be things that make you different, even if they also help you with something else.

Re: I'm About as Good as Dead: The End of Xah Lee

#217

Post by DanBC » Fri, May 16, 2014, 4:00 PM UTC

rafekett wrote: post #207

chaired wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some find this type of labeling helpful. Some find it unhelpful. At any rate, we should probably tread carefully. People with mental illness need jobs as much as, if not more than, those who pass for normal. I know. I have suffered from serious mental issues for 18 years. In that same time, I have enjoyed a long, exciting, and storied career; and I know that my employers have been grateful.

My intention wasn't to label anyone. Xah has been a disruptive and counterproductive presence in the emacs community, but I think it's because he needs help he's not getting. He spent his time in poverty fighting flame wars on usenet -- he needs to get his priorities straight. I buy he's a smart guy who can get a lot done, but he's not employable in his current state, and I don't think the right solution is to give h…

"Diagnosing" people when you're not a doctor and when your only contact with that person is written stuff on the Internet is stigmatising.

It keeps people with mental illness out of work (because employers illegally consider that person to be a riskier hire) and it does little to help the person being discussed who might just be an asshole rather than being someone with a diagnosable MH illness.

Re: I'm About as Good as Dead: The End of Xah Lee

#218

Post by nilsimsa » Fri, May 16, 2014, 4:00 PM UTC

hyperpape wrote: post #52

mansr wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He spent decades trolling everyone and everything on Usenet and mailing lists. He had it coming.

I hope that the world will have more mercy on you than you give. Xah has been a pain in the ass for a lot of people, but I do not wish anyone to be left without healthcare or homeless, regardless of what they have done. Even criminals get locked up and fed. Opinions like yours simply have no place anywhere.

What are you doing to help him?

Re: I'm About as Good as Dead: The End of Xah Lee

#219

Post by at-fates-hands » Fri, May 16, 2014, 4:02 PM UTC

e40 wrote: post #81

_19qg wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Xah Lee is open source contributor to the LISP communities? Really? Where? He acted as a troll for years in the LISP communities. There is no other contribution I'm aware of. He was more helpful with Emacs.

In the 90's, he was the biggest troll on comp.lang.lisp. I actually found some of his stuff funny. It wasn't like it was hard to tell he was trolling. It was performance art, IMO. I often wonder, though, what strange person was behind it. Now I know, sadly.

I guess this is a cautionary tale then about not burning bridges? Seems like the guy is pretty bright, but for all the years he was trolling people, those are the people he needs now more than ever to help him out.

Sad, really sad.

Re: I'm About as Good as Dead: The End of Xah Lee

#220

Post by sanxiyn » Fri, May 16, 2014, 4:04 PM UTC

bentcorner wrote: post #167

pekk wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is the worst, unforgivable sin (even worse than being old). It doesn't matter what you have done, if there is no corporation to witness to your ability and you do not have a fresh face. Hence "entry-level" positions requiring 5 years of experience, and yet you are unemployable forever if you don't have a job within 5 years of graduating. It might as well be law.

Is having corporate experience really that much better though? I mean, obviously working for someone for several years implies some level of competence, but your work is nearly always locked away and you can't show it off. Ideally you'd want someone who does both; working for someone, which demonstrates the ability to work on a team, while also contributing to open source and making their own content, upon which you…

Practically speaking, yes, having corporate experience is much better.

After leaving the school (I didn't graduate), I spent 2 years doing self-directed learning about computing. I have commit access to PyPy and LLVM, am credited in release notes of Mono and IronPython, and hundreds of open source commits to show off. I still had a lot of trouble landing a job. I got lucky in the end, but it was rough.

You seem to overestimate how open source contributions are judged in job search. Corporate experience is not hearsay; it is concrete. Open source contributions are not concrete, because most employers do not know how to evaluate them.