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Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

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Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#121

So time to fork Firefox?

So I've seen this reaction in a few places, and I'm genuinely interested in what people think that it would achieve. You take the code of a browser that allows, but does not require, you to use a DRM system* and change it so that you are no longer able to install a DRM system. What's the value proposition of the new browser? You won't be tempted to install the DRM component when you find yourself wanting to view media that requires it? That seems pretty weak compared to the difficulty of maintaining a browser fork.

It seems to me that refusing to ship DRM makes sense if it gives leverage against the content companies, such that could be used to make them adopt DRM-free solutions. To get such leverage it would be necessary both that the reach of the unencumbered web was compelling and that requiring DRM would significantly limit that reach. Unfortunately plugins have historically provided a DRM-enabled way of distributing content via the web, so there was no compelling reason for content makers to forgo DRM in the past. This makes it significantly more difficult to change the industry today.

It is possible that there was a chance to win back some ground with the decline of plugins on mobile. However, it's also possible that the prevalence of native apps on those platforms made the web itself a less appealing medium for distributing content to mobile users. In any case, the eagerness of Microsoft and Google to deploy in-browser DRM means that we didn't get to run that experiment. Instead we are in a situation where some high percentage of web users can get DRM encumbered video content in their current browser. For those who can't the barrier to switching browsers is typically rather small. Not shipping the capability to view DRMed video in this situation is, tragically, trying to hold a non-equilibrium position; it might be principled but it is going to end in a significantly sub-optimal outcome.

I suppose the optimistic view is that video will follow the iTunes model and DRM will be a short term burden that we have to bear until technology and attitudes in the industry make it clear that there's a better way. I'm confident that Mozilla will continue to push to find that better way.

* Assuming one that exists that is compatible with your OS + hardware + etc.; all the usual problems of binary blobs in general and DRM in particular still apply, of course.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#122
Remember, the closed-source component is there because there has to be a place for the deliberately inserted NSA vulnerabilities (note the proposed use of Adobe). It's likely that this bizarre and unpopular decision is the result of some behind-the-scenes arm-twisting.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#123
post #52
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that thats quite fair— Firefox won't run the CDM without user consent. You can still say no. Having a choice doesn't magically resolve the issues, it doesn't prevent content providers from making things formerly available unavailable, it doesn't help us (as users) make better more considered decisions rather than clicking yes a lot to get things done, etc. But it does retain the choice to not run this st…

The problem is that no one can guarantee that the "opt-out" choice will continue to be there in the foreseeable future. What will happen when, suddenly Mozilla starts "feeling the pressure" to remove that option? What then? The problem is the building's foundations, not the decoration.

Who would be pressuring Mozilla to remove the option?

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bend here and the web itself is under threat. Don't bend here and Mozilla itself could be under threat. DRM exists, many major content providers have shown little interest in releasing their material without a mechanism for preventing casual copying (and you can hardly blame them), and accessing multimedia downloads is an increasingly important function of the Web. Denying that reality isn't going to achieve anything…

What's more important Mozilla or the web? This is a case where Mozilla thinks that by sticking around they can do more good than by killing this particular attack on the free web. Can we justify this completely? IMHO, no. Perhaps the whole existence of Mozilla was leading up to this point where it could commit ritualistic suicide and take this DRM proposal with it. Of course nobody at Mozilla will see it that way. Or…

> Perhaps the whole existence of Mozilla was leading up to this point where it could commit ritualistic suicide and take this DRM proposal with it.

Except, if Mozilla had committed "ritualistic suicide" over EME, it wouldn't have taken EME with it. Users would move to every other browser with HTML5 DRM implemented, Mozilla would die accomplishing nothing.

A world with entrenched HTML5 DRM & Mozilla strikes me as strictly preferable to a world without Mozilla in which HTML5 DRM is just as entrenched.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bend here and the web itself is under threat. Don't bend here and Mozilla itself could be under threat. DRM exists, many major content providers have shown little interest in releasing their material without a mechanism for preventing casual copying (and you can hardly blame them), and accessing multimedia downloads is an increasingly important function of the Web. Denying that reality isn't going to achieve anything…

What's more important Mozilla or the web? This is a case where Mozilla thinks that by sticking around they can do more good than by killing this particular attack on the free web. Can we justify this completely? IMHO, no. Perhaps the whole existence of Mozilla was leading up to this point where it could commit ritualistic suicide and take this DRM proposal with it. Of course nobody at Mozilla will see it that way. Or…

> This is a case where Mozilla thinks that by sticking around they can do more good than by killing this particular attack on the free web.

How can Mozilla kill it? It simply doesn't have the power, faced with Google, Microsoft and Apple implementing EME.

Yes, Mozilla could have taken a pure, principled stance and avoided EME. Perhaps some thoughtful people would use Firefox for that reason. But those same thoughtful people would have boycotted Chrome and Internet Explorer when they started to ship EME.

There has been no such boycott. If we - the people on the web - wanted to stop EME, that would have been the only way. Mozilla can't do it if the people don't want to.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, the evergreen of explanations by those that betray their principles and users (or, you know, voters). They exercised a freedom of choice they had, and this is the decision they made. This is what we judge them on. No backsies, no "but I didn't want to", just pure "go fuck yourself Mozilla".

Bullshit. Sometimes you're forced to either do something shitty or be competitively displaced by actors that will do it anyway. Do you really want Mozilla to fall on their sword and leave us with worse alternatives? I don't understand how you could be upset with Mozilla about this. The decision is basically being made for them.

hink the average customer watches Netflix et al through an app on their shitty Samsung smart TV, not through their Firefox browser. So I think this impression that users will suddenly all abandon Firefox is overblown and false.

As I noted above, this decision doesn't make or break DRM. I think we should just take note that Mozilla would betray their principles for some .5% of market share.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#128
post #44
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't the case. You can choose to not install the CDM component.

Apple has for political reasons disabled the possibility to install a Flash plugin on Safari/iOS. Why doesn't Firefox do the same with a CDM component for political reasons?

Saying that Apple "disabled the possibility to install a Flash plugin" implies that that possibility existed at some point. Support for installable browser plugins has never existed on iOS, so there was never anything for Apple to "disable".

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#129
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I run my browsers without Flash in order to avoid Adobe's exploit-du-jour crapware. This means, for example, that I don't run Chrome. If this binary blob from Adobe isn't presented with a similar UI as regular "plugins" (that the user can disable or uninstall), then I will look into writing an extension to disable it, or perhaps rely on a Firefox fork to give me a Flash-lite(tm) free browser.

You might want to reconsider. Chrome sandboxes the Flash runtime [1], meaning a 0-day exploit in Flash alone doesn't get an attacker access to your machine. 1. http://thenextweb.com/google/2012/11/13/google-declares-flas...

What makes you so sure?

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#130
post #77
post #9

Mozilla had to be dragged into this acceptance kicking and screaming (metaphorically). They were faced with a hard choice, Not implement EME (HTML5 DRM) and risk users moving to other browsers (user loss) or implement EME and risk looking like they are contradicting their core mission (trust loss). They figured a little loss of trust is worth keeping most of the users on the Mozilla platform - which in my view is the…

It is the wrong choice. It's the same BS I remember reading on slides from graphics card vendors excusing some other way of selling the user down the river. Content can adapt to reach their customers. Bend here and the web itself is under threat. Mozilla needs a social contract like Debian, since it seems clear they can't rely on leadership for backbone.

> It is the wrong choice.

WHat would the web gain if Mozilla lost most of its user base? Could we trust Apple, Microsoft and Google to have a moral backbone?

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