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London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

bbc.co.uk

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Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#51

Post by [deleted] »

tragic wrote: post #40
gadders wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha. I'd be interested to see anyone manage that. On top of this, in central London it's pretty built up so SatNav doesn't always work in the canyons between buildings.

I don't know - some modern satnav systems are able to get hold of live traffic info and suchlike. That was always the point of The Knowledge - to know (for example) which major thoroughfares to avoid so you aren't going to be sitting in gridlock for an hour, however counterintuitive such evasive manoeuvres might be to an automated route finder. The better informed the satnav, the less valuable that is.

[deleted]

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#52

Post by jgrahamc »

casca wrote: post #22

The Black Cabs in London have a long-standing monopoly on picking people up on the street and providing a metered journey. This is mandated by law. To become a black cab (not always black in colour) driver, it is necessary to take an advanced test called The Knowledge where you are expected to know every London street and landmark along with best routes based on random street closures. It takes about 3 years to study…

One of the key benefits of The Knowledge is that I can jump in a black cab in London and say "Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons" and have a driver who can instantly decide which way to go...

1. Without asking for any clarification

2. Without typing a bunch of stuff into a GPS device

3. And with knowledge of time/space specific optimizations

Yes, black cabs are not cheap. You are getting a very specific service for that money.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#53

Post by TeMPOraL »

tomp wrote: post #45
return0 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in 2014, there should be no need to make people memorize those thing to the risk of their heads exploding. Maybe if the Black Cabs had used their network to create an AI-powered optimal route-finding system, they wouldn't be afraid of competition.

For the purpose of my and other people's safety, I don't want my taxi driver to be constantly looking at the phone at the busiest junctions, neither do I want to explain to them how to spell a given street name so that they can type it in their phone in the middle of a busy street during the rush hour. Maybe in 2024.

It's not "constantly looking at the phone", it's the plain old "using navigation in your car" that many people already do. AFAIK, safe driving with navigation is a long-solved problem.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#54

Post by ibmthrowaway218 »

lmm wrote: post #35
nakedrobot2 wrote: post #2

What a deplorable, luddite attitude. The black taxis should be banned for some period of time for this behavior. "The Licensed Taxi Drivers Association complains that Uber's drivers are using a smartphone app to calculate fares despite it being illegal for private vehicles to be fitted with taximeters." So using this website in your car is illegal?! http://www.worldtaximeter.com/

You're either a minicab offering pre-booked journeys or you're a taxi with a meter. If Uber is claiming they're a pre-booked journey service rather than a taxi then yes, they shouldn't be using meters and that would be illegal. If you want to change the law then by all means write to your MP or whatever, but in the meantime the law as it is should be enforced, even against fashionable companies.

In the absence of a pre-agreed/fixed price most minicab drivers will charge based on a combination of distance/time measured using the vehicles trip-meter/odometer and a clock. That's not much different to what the Uber app is doing in (surge multiplier excepted).

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#55

Post by aspidistra »

rmc wrote: post #46
brianlweiner wrote: post #3

Ridiculous behavior. I'm glad the black taxis seem to have their customer's well-being at heart. "Uber, funded by Google, Goldman Sachs and others, has a stated aim of challenging legislation that is not compatible with its business model," said Mr McNamara. "This is not some philanthropic friendly society, it's an American monster that has no qualms about breaching any and all laws in the pursuit of profit, most of…

They're probably talking about the Google not having it's corporate offices in the UK. The UK is a massive tax haven anyway, with weird little sub-national groups like the Channel Islands and Isle of Mann. edit : Yes I'm aware the Channel Islands & Isle of Mann aren't part of the UK, but they are 'British' and massive tax havens, sometimes with one company director per inhabitant.

Neither the Channel Islands nor the Isle of Man are in the UK.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#56

Post by stuaxo »

So - >> TfL told the association last month that it believed Uber's vehicles were not strictly "equipped" with taximeters since there was not "some sort of connection between the device and the vehicle".

Instead there is a device used for calculating how far it has gone, e.g. "metering"... this is a bollocks distinction.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#57

Post by buro9 »

casca wrote: post #22

The Black Cabs in London have a long-standing monopoly on picking people up on the street and providing a metered journey. This is mandated by law. To become a black cab (not always black in colour) driver, it is necessary to take an advanced test called The Knowledge where you are expected to know every London street and landmark along with best routes based on random street closures. It takes about 3 years to study…

> Any advances that Uber makes will benefit all mini-cab companies and most importantly, passengers.

Except for all of the disabled ones, the wheelchair users, the ones who only wish to travel a very short distance and are unable to do so alone (the pregnant, mothers with pushchairs, the extremely inebriated, elderly, injured, etc).

The monopoly and some privileges (bus lane access, pick up fares anywhere) is granted in exchange for a lot of obligations including accepting every fare in the centre of London even at a loss (of time spent against the profit of a fare), for fixed prices, and without excluding anyone of any ability.

If Uber wish to gain the advantages that black cabs have, then they are free to accept the responsibilities and obligations that come with it. Which will of course mean changing their whole fleet to fully accessible vehicles and not allowing any driver to refuse a fare.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#58

Post by stuaxo »

buro9 wrote: post #32
nodata wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What a deplorable, luddite attitude. Well presumably you know their side of the story too? Presumably (hopefully someone who actually knows can fill us in) the taxi drivers have spent huge amounts of time learning The Knowledge and buying their cars and keeping to the fairly strict regulations that exist, and don't find it fair that another company can offer a service without a level playing field. Presumably.

Not just that, but black taxis have to operate under certain constraints and obligations. Examples are: not having the right to refuse a fare within 6 miles of the centre of London (usually taken as Charing Cross). Being obliged to have vehicles that are accessible to wheelchair and disabled users. Being obliged to take a vehicle out of service if it is damaged in any way (i.e. another vehicle clips your wing mirror…

Of course they do refuse fairs, and a couple of times I've heard the "I'm not going in that direction" reason.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#59

Post by calpaterson »

casca wrote: post #22

The Black Cabs in London have a long-standing monopoly on picking people up on the street and providing a metered journey. This is mandated by law. To become a black cab (not always black in colour) driver, it is necessary to take an advanced test called The Knowledge where you are expected to know every London street and landmark along with best routes based on random street closures. It takes about 3 years to study…

For anyone interested a documentary of the Knowledge test from the 1990s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvFKh_3evC8

The documentary paints an interesting picture

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#60

Post by viraptor »

nodata wrote: post #8
nakedrobot2 wrote: post #2

What a deplorable, luddite attitude. The black taxis should be banned for some period of time for this behavior. "The Licensed Taxi Drivers Association complains that Uber's drivers are using a smartphone app to calculate fares despite it being illegal for private vehicles to be fitted with taximeters." So using this website in your car is illegal?! http://www.worldtaximeter.com/

> What a deplorable, luddite attitude. Well presumably you know their side of the story too? Presumably (hopefully someone who actually knows can fill us in) the taxi drivers have spent huge amounts of time learning The Knowledge and buying their cars and keeping to the fairly strict regulations that exist, and don't find it fair that another company can offer a service without a level playing field. Presumably.

Does their story matter if they purposefully block the city traffic? Sure, it may matter on its own, but if they break the law and make life harder for others, that behaviour cannot be excused. They may have learned for the test, but in the time of satnavs that already have all the streets, digital broadcasts of current roadworks / street closures / accidents, and waze/google like collection of real-time data about traffic, that knowledge is simply not required.

Someone else is not keeping their service in line with the regulations and it costs them business? Sue them. Doesn't work? Well, the same rules don't apply to you apparently, so your life just got a bit easier.

I'm in favour of some regulation of the transport services. But as soon as companies try to backstab each other at the cost of people in the city - charge them for it, I'm sure there are other companies that will be happy to take over.

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