London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber • Hacker News Board

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#31

Post by cjrp » Thu, May 08, 2014, 1:33 PM UTC

snitko wrote: post #23

nodata wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What a deplorable, luddite attitude. Well presumably you know their side of the story too? Presumably (hopefully someone who actually knows can fill us in) the taxi drivers have spent huge amounts of time learning The Knowledge and buying their cars and keeping to the fairly strict regulations that exist, and don't find it fair that another company can offer a service without a level playing field. Presumably.

If their knowledge is of any value to consumers, consumers are going to choose them over Uber. If not, then nobody should care. I can learn how to program stuff for MSDOS, doesn't mean it'd be worth anything these days. As for regulations and licensing, it shouldn't exist in the first place as it only raises prices and prevents legitimate competition.

Their knowledge is quite valuable in London (mini-cabs blindly follow the sat-nav and so will sit in traffic for longer, in my experience). Also, black cabs can often make use of bus lanes (of which there are many in London) which can actually result in a quicker, cheaper journey. Perhaps the LTDA should be promoting the benefits of black cabs rather than causing a traffic jam.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#32

Post by buro9 » Thu, May 08, 2014, 1:33 PM UTC

nodata wrote: post #8

nakedrobot2 wrote: post #2

What a deplorable, luddite attitude. The black taxis should be banned for some period of time for this behavior. "The Licensed Taxi Drivers Association complains that Uber's drivers are using a smartphone app to calculate fares despite it being illegal for private vehicles to be fitted with taximeters." So using this website in your car is illegal?! http://www.worldtaximeter.com/

> What a deplorable, luddite attitude. Well presumably you know their side of the story too? Presumably (hopefully someone who actually knows can fill us in) the taxi drivers have spent huge amounts of time learning The Knowledge and buying their cars and keeping to the fairly strict regulations that exist, and don't find it fair that another company can offer a service without a level playing field. Presumably.

Not just that, but black taxis have to operate under certain constraints and obligations.

Examples are: not having the right to refuse a fare within 6 miles of the centre of London (usually taken as Charing Cross). Being obliged to have vehicles that are accessible to wheelchair and disabled users. Being obliged to take a vehicle out of service if it is damaged in any way (i.e. another vehicle clips your wing mirror or dents your door, and you must take the vehicle off the road immediately and not put it back into service until fully repaired). The full background and criminal record check (one of the few exemptions from Rehabilitation of Offenders Act allowing people to hide their history). And every black cab is tracked 24/7 (revealed in a court case of alleged rape where the victim had claimed an unnamed taxi driver had done it - when locality was narrowed down and the list of taxi drivers in that area revealed they all had fares or did not meet the description the case collapsed). Then there's also the type of licence of a driver has, granting access to inner London taxi ranks vs outer London with various restrictions on both. Black cabs must take the shortest possible route (defined as time I believe), or a route you instruct. Prices are regulated and cannot be surged, etc.

Simply... the black cab taxi is not comparable to the private hire vehicle (minicab or executive car). The set of costs you are exposed to is significant, as is the set of intrusions and obligations.

I only know most of the above due to another company, Addison Lee, illegally using bus lanes and jeopardising cyclists. Only then did I learn that the bus lane privilege is part of the obligation about accessibility and shortest route.

In this specific instance I find myself thinking the LTDA are acting from a purely preservationist perspective as I think TFL are right that mere facts are a different thing from a taximeter. And if LTDA want to win this, they need to extend the narrow definition of a taximeter to any device that allows metering of a vehicle based on factors including distance travelled, location, speed, etc. As the legislation currently wouldn't treat this https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/mytaxicontrol-leading-taxime... as a taximeter.

But usually, my response is that London is better with a fully accessible and regulated taxi service requiring all fares to be accepted than without, and that there's nothing stopping Uber or anyone else accepting all of the obligations that black cabs have in return for operating on the same terms.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#33

Post by gadders » Thu, May 08, 2014, 1:33 PM UTC

return0 wrote: post #30

casca wrote: post #22

The Black Cabs in London have a long-standing monopoly on picking people up on the street and providing a metered journey. This is mandated by law. To become a black cab (not always black in colour) driver, it is necessary to take an advanced test called The Knowledge where you are expected to know every London street and landmark along with best routes based on random street closures. It takes about 3 years to study…

But in 2014, there should be no need to make people memorize those thing to the risk of their heads exploding. Maybe if the Black Cabs had used their network to create an AI-powered optimal route-finding system, they wouldn't be afraid of competition.

Ha. I'd be interested to see anyone manage that.

On top of this, in central London it's pretty built up so SatNav doesn't always work in the canyons between buildings.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#34

Post by ibmthrowaway218 » Thu, May 08, 2014, 1:34 PM UTC

6d0debc071 wrote: post #6

I wonder how legal that is. 'If a person, without lawful authority or excuse, in any way wilfully obstructs the free passage along a highway he is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine not exceeding [F1 level 3 on the standard scale].' - Highways Act 1980 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/part/IX/crosshea...

The right to protest is also enshrined in UK law (within a huge number of constraints).

Other (one-off or infrequent) protests such as Critical Mass certainly obstruct free passage along the highway, but they are tolerated.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#35

Post by lmm » Thu, May 08, 2014, 1:36 PM UTC

nakedrobot2 wrote: post #2

What a deplorable, luddite attitude. The black taxis should be banned for some period of time for this behavior. "The Licensed Taxi Drivers Association complains that Uber's drivers are using a smartphone app to calculate fares despite it being illegal for private vehicles to be fitted with taximeters." So using this website in your car is illegal?! http://www.worldtaximeter.com/

You're either a minicab offering pre-booked journeys or you're a taxi with a meter. If Uber is claiming they're a pre-booked journey service rather than a taxi then yes, they shouldn't be using meters and that would be illegal. If you want to change the law then by all means write to your MP or whatever, but in the meantime the law as it is should be enforced, even against fashionable companies.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#36

Post by cjrp » Thu, May 08, 2014, 1:37 PM UTC

gadders wrote: post #33

return0 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in 2014, there should be no need to make people memorize those thing to the risk of their heads exploding. Maybe if the Black Cabs had used their network to create an AI-powered optimal route-finding system, they wouldn't be afraid of competition.

Ha. I'd be interested to see anyone manage that. On top of this, in central London it's pretty built up so SatNav doesn't always work in the canyons between buildings.

Plus a SatNav won't know that at rush hour, a longer (distance-wise) route could be quicker in a black cab due to them being allowed to use bus lanes.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#37

Post by Symmetry » Thu, May 08, 2014, 1:38 PM UTC

kevingadd wrote: post #14

brianlweiner wrote: post #3

Ridiculous behavior. I'm glad the black taxis seem to have their customer's well-being at heart. "Uber, funded by Google, Goldman Sachs and others, has a stated aim of challenging legislation that is not compatible with its business model," said Mr McNamara. "This is not some philanthropic friendly society, it's an American monster that has no qualms about breaching any and all laws in the pursuit of profit, most of…

The company's profits are far in excess of the employee salaries that are taxed in most cases anyway. That's the goal. If the goal was to retain exactly $0 in profit by paying your employees generously, then yes, the taxes your employees paid would be enough.

Uber gives 80% of the fair to the divers. I'm struggling to see how it could earn profits "far in excess" of of that 80% unless it invests whatever is left of the 20% after overhead in some really lucrative City investments.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#38

Post by gadders » Thu, May 08, 2014, 1:38 PM UTC

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #25

casca wrote: post #22

The Black Cabs in London have a long-standing monopoly on picking people up on the street and providing a metered journey. This is mandated by law. To become a black cab (not always black in colour) driver, it is necessary to take an advanced test called The Knowledge where you are expected to know every London street and landmark along with best routes based on random street closures. It takes about 3 years to study…

To put that into context, there are 25,000 streets covered by The Knowledge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_the_United_Kingdom#...

I had a neighbour that was doing the knowledge. We used to hear him practise in the back garden with his wife. Hearing her shout random routes at him like "Buckingham Palace to Bank Tube" and him spouting one road name after another was pretty amazing.

If you're ever in London and you see a guy (or girl) on a bashed up moped with a clipboard strapped to the handlebars, they are learning their routes for The Knowledge.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#39

Post by nakedrobot2 » Thu, May 08, 2014, 1:38 PM UTC

nodata wrote: post #8

nakedrobot2 wrote: post #2

What a deplorable, luddite attitude. The black taxis should be banned for some period of time for this behavior. "The Licensed Taxi Drivers Association complains that Uber's drivers are using a smartphone app to calculate fares despite it being illegal for private vehicles to be fitted with taximeters." So using this website in your car is illegal?! http://www.worldtaximeter.com/

> What a deplorable, luddite attitude. Well presumably you know their side of the story too? Presumably (hopefully someone who actually knows can fill us in) the taxi drivers have spent huge amounts of time learning The Knowledge and buying their cars and keeping to the fairly strict regulations that exist, and don't find it fair that another company can offer a service without a level playing field. Presumably.

Yes, I do know their side of the story, and I'm sorry to say that I still have the opinion written above. The Black Taxis are rather obsolete. As a consumer I don't really care that they learned The Knowledge since it won't help routing me around a traffic jam that just started a few minutes ago, to give one example!

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#40

Post by tragic » Thu, May 08, 2014, 1:38 PM UTC

gadders wrote: post #33

return0 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in 2014, there should be no need to make people memorize those thing to the risk of their heads exploding. Maybe if the Black Cabs had used their network to create an AI-powered optimal route-finding system, they wouldn't be afraid of competition.

Ha. I'd be interested to see anyone manage that. On top of this, in central London it's pretty built up so SatNav doesn't always work in the canyons between buildings.

I don't know - some modern satnav systems are able to get hold of live traffic info and suchlike. That was always the point of The Knowledge - to know (for example) which major thoroughfares to avoid so you aren't going to be sitting in gridlock for an hour, however counterintuitive such evasive manoeuvres might be to an automated route finder.

The better informed the satnav, the less valuable that is.