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It's Different for Girls

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Re: It's Different for Girls

#191

Post by carrotleads »

pekk wrote: post #158
enraged_camel wrote: post #117

I have an ex-coworker who is a really attractive girl, and she used to tell me lots of stories like this about places she had worked at previously. Vice presidents calling her to their room and offering her promotions if only she would give them weekly blowjobs, prospective customers turning away from million-dollar deals at the last minute after she refused to sleep with them, etc. The really sad thing about is that…

What sorts of guys do you hang out with? I'm not sure how you know that the vast majority of men think that women complaining about being solicited for blowjobs are "being bitchy." That seems like a really jaundiced generalization of men.

but you do realise that these women would be complaining about something else as a placeholder for the BJ... and that can be seen as bitchy. rarely does a women complain of BJ's without undertaking harrasment complaints.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#192

Post by eli »

teacup50 wrote: post #156
guelo wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not the big takeaway. The big takeaway is that straight white men's privilege gives them an advantage over everybody else since they face fewer obstacles such as having their hands forced onto a penis while closing a business deal.

> straight white men's privilege The article didn't actually include the man's race.

The point is the same though: it's about power and privilege.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#193

Post by Mz »

_tlf7 wrote: post #189

I'm a woman who is new to hacker news. I've been told I have to be on this thing if I ever want to apply for YC. I don't know if I'll ever do that but I don't want to ruin that opportunity. I've been reading through all these comments and a lot of them make me sick to my stomach. Articles that surround women in the work force interest me because my startup is in this space, but at what cost of my sanity do I have to…

I just tweeted you with a link to my blog because it was the only contact info in your profile. HN used to be a lot rougher. I probably have the second highest karma of any openly female member. I used to get badly raked over the coals. I think a) yeah, there is room for improvement on HN b) I have been in even worse sexist business/professional situations, so it took me a while to connect the dots and realize it was a sexism thing. So I think you probably do need a thick skin and more savvy about how to deal with such things if you are going to make it in business. This is really not that horrible, in the grand scheme of things.

Sorry you are having some trouble with it. (I would have emailed you these remarks, but, again, no ready means to do so.)

Re: It's Different for Girls

#194

Post by slurry »

yypark wrote: post #95
skannamalai wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a person of color? Are you a woman? Are you gay? Are you trans? Are you disabled? Not trolling, genuinely curious. Edit: I can't reply to the children (might be my karma game) and so I'll reply here. The linked article is about specifically about power and privilege, and how being a woman in the tech business puts you at a severe disadvantage in your job, in your community of choice. The reason why I ask is j…

Why does privilege mean that white, male, straight, or non-disabled people are not allowed to say "lighten up" or even express an alternative opinion on these topics? Why are their opinions now less because of their skin color or sexuality? Privilege goes in both directions: It's now become standard to diminish any white male's opinions on matter of diversity or gender or race, because of their identity, and give exp…

>Why does privilege mean that white, male, straight, or non-disabled people are not allowed to say "lighten up" or even express an alternative opinion on these topics? Why are their opinions now less because of their skin color or sexuality?

Here is why:

"Why did the chicken cross the road? BECAUSE NEGROES CAN'T READ. HAR HAR HAR HAR!!!!!!! Pretty funny, huh? Oh, come on, lighten up."

^Typical context in which "lighten up" is used . You don't want to sound like that guy, do you? So don't say "lighten up', no matter what race or orientation you are.

If someone finds your joke uncomfortable (like I'm hoping we all found the joke above uncomfortable) trying to cajole them into comfort with it is wasted effort at best, continuation of harassment at worst, and a simple dick move most likely.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#195

Post by cube_yellow »

fmdud wrote: post #182
pekk wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right that it's a completely horrible comment. But even so, where did he say that we should expect men to "commit sexual assault" in the workplace? Flirting with someone or asking them to coffee is not sexual assault, though it is inappropriate for the workplace.

I've seen this argument so many times at this point they blur into one. It's a watered down version of "She was asking for it" when talking about about a rape case. The way someone looks or the clothes they have on doesn't give you carte blanche to harass/assault them. I'll show you what I mean: >If you are an attractive woman and want to do business under such potential circumstance, then your best bet is to try to…

If I stand in the middle of a street, I can reasonably expect that drivers will be aware enough to slow down and not hit me, but if some idiot on his cell phone hits me, it's reasonable to ask why I was standing in the middle of the street. Encouraging women to be conscious of themselves, their bodies, and office dynamics is the same thing as kinda-sorta enforcing a no-jaywalking policy. No, it's not exactly your "fault" if you get hit, but we make (lenient) rules to prevent you from being hurt by idiots.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#196

Post by refurb »

wpietri wrote: post #131
chez17 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those don't matter and what you are doing is generalizing lots of groups of people which is something I assume you would be against. What matters is individuals. Some gay people don't mind jokes about being gay, some do. Some women don't mind jokes about gender, some do. If you are a in a professional setting you NEVER lead with a joke about something personal or potentially controversial if you are not among very ve…

Those do indeed matter. As Louis CK artfully explains, as a white male, you can't even hurt my feelings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY It's almost impossible for me, as person advantaged by society, to fathom the death-by-a-thousand-papercuts feeling that people who are less advantaged experience. I've tried a lot, for years, and I regularly fail. Just today, I read a great piece titled, "Calling the Whi…

Are you saying if you're a heterosexual white male you have no concept of exclusion or discrimination?

People are more than just their race and sex and sexual orientation. People can be discriminated against due to their disability (mental and physical), weight, appearance, intelligence, background, etc., etc., etc.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#197

Post by pekk »

aaronem wrote: post #50
Swizec wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, my bad. Totally read that as him placing his hand in his pants. As in, only one person involved.

Probably not in a restaurant, though. Dragging the subthread back on topic, while I don't doubt Ms. Roizen or anyone else who describes having encountered such abhorrent behavior, it amazes me every time I hear about it, and not so much because it's sexual assault as because I have such a hard time believing any man, indeed anyone of any sex or gender, could be so incredibly déclassé . I don't know -- maybe it's beca…

Given HN's comments above, apparently we are to believe it is all men who do these things, and think women are "bitches" for objecting to them.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#198

Post by reitzensteinm »

_tlf7 wrote: post #189

I'm a woman who is new to hacker news. I've been told I have to be on this thing if I ever want to apply for YC. I don't know if I'll ever do that but I don't want to ruin that opportunity. I've been reading through all these comments and a lot of them make me sick to my stomach. Articles that surround women in the work force interest me because my startup is in this space, but at what cost of my sanity do I have to…

You shouldn't participate here just to keep your options for YC open, especially if you don't like the company! At the end of the day, that same amount of effort is going to be better spent directly on your business.

For what it's worth, these threads are always train wrecks, and many here avoid participating and even reading because of it. Usually, they just get flagged straight off the front page, though that hasn't happened here.

HN hits a lot of high notes, so if you learn to tune out the noise, you'll probably enjoy your stay here much more.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#199

Post by nostrademons »

beaner wrote: post #147
enraged_camel wrote: post #117

I have an ex-coworker who is a really attractive girl, and she used to tell me lots of stories like this about places she had worked at previously. Vice presidents calling her to their room and offering her promotions if only she would give them weekly blowjobs, prospective customers turning away from million-dollar deals at the last minute after she refused to sleep with them, etc. The really sad thing about is that…

Don't understand why we don't start naming and shaming. It's a lot easier to not see as a real problem when it's always stories of nameless men in unspecified locations and situations. And the kinds people who are prone to this behavior are being given a free pass, only to do it again later.

Shaming usually makes people either dig their heels in more and justify their behavior, or it drives the behavior underground where they won't get caught for it. Neither is a desirable result.

I think that what Heidi did is basically perfect - she's educating people that this does go on, it does have an effect on the women who are subjected to it, and they shouldn't have to put up with it. But she's doing it in a neutral, non-defensive tone, without calling out specific people. That's usually much more effective at changing behavior.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#200

Post by shanacarp »

ars wrote: post #129
enraged_camel wrote: post #117

I have an ex-coworker who is a really attractive girl, and she used to tell me lots of stories like this about places she had worked at previously. Vice presidents calling her to their room and offering her promotions if only she would give them weekly blowjobs, prospective customers turning away from million-dollar deals at the last minute after she refused to sleep with them, etc. The really sad thing about is that…

Makes you wonder about how many women do accept such offers and get ahead that way. Which is "unfair" in a way to the men who don't have such an option. I'm really curious about the numbers here - what percent of women have ever agreed to such offers for the purpose of getting ahead (at any point in their lifetime). I'm hoping the number is in the single digits, because if it's higher this type of harassment will nev…

Imagine submitting and then not getting the offer. You're screwed either way.
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