It's Different for Girls • Hacker News Board

Re: It's Different for Girls

#161

Post by wutbrodo » Fri, May 02, 2014, 11:03 PM UTC

bsirkia wrote: post #25

Very refreshing read for a few reasons: - The use of specific examples, rather than broad generalizations. - Explaining that the intent and attitude of the potential offender makes a huge difference (ie. Feld vs. hand in pants dude). - Acknowledging that even she has made some un-PC comments unintentionally. - Not offering any silver bullet solution, because there isn't one. As a white guy, hearing stories like this…

> Explaining that the intent and attitude of the potential offender makes a huge difference (ie. Feld vs. hand in pants dude).

_what???_ You think INTENT was the difference between those two situations? You really don't see any inherent difference between using an expression that involves genitals but doesn't have anything to do with them and...sexually assaulting by forcing them to touch your genitals? The difference between those two examples had nothing to do with intent or attitude, but the actual action itself was explicitly malevolent in the latter case while accidentally offensive at worst in the former.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#162

Post by pekk » Fri, May 02, 2014, 11:04 PM UTC

beaner wrote: post #147

enraged_camel wrote: post #117

I have an ex-coworker who is a really attractive girl, and she used to tell me lots of stories like this about places she had worked at previously. Vice presidents calling her to their room and offering her promotions if only she would give them weekly blowjobs, prospective customers turning away from million-dollar deals at the last minute after she refused to sleep with them, etc. The really sad thing about is that…

Don't understand why we don't start naming and shaming. It's a lot easier to not see as a real problem when it's always stories of nameless men in unspecified locations and situations. And the kinds people who are prone to this behavior are being given a free pass, only to do it again later.

Let's figure out what kind of behavior you mean by "this behavior." Does it mean saying dongle to my buddy?

Re: It's Different for Girls

#163

Post by ars » Fri, May 02, 2014, 11:04 PM UTC

alukima wrote: post #150

ars wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes you wonder about how many women do accept such offers and get ahead that way. Which is "unfair" in a way to the men who don't have such an option. I'm really curious about the numbers here - what percent of women have ever agreed to such offers for the purpose of getting ahead (at any point in their lifetime). I'm hoping the number is in the single digits, because if it's higher this type of harassment will nev…

Seriously? What do you think is more likely to happen if the woman submits?- 1. She gets a promotion she doesn't totally doesn't deserve because she submitted to sexual harassment by her her boss at work. She's happy about this. 2. She submits to sexual harassment because she is afraid she'll lose her job if she doesn't. She feels dirty and exploited. And this is unfair to men how? Because they don't have to put up w…

> What do you think is more likely to happen

I don't know. That's why I asked. Do you know?

And there is a 3rd option where she refuses.

Jokes/books/movies makes it seems like it happens all the time, but I don't know if it really does.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#164

Post by namenotrequired » Fri, May 02, 2014, 11:05 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #80

jawns wrote: post #6

I think the big takeaway here, not just for women but for anyone in the workplace who feels uncomfortable with or offended by something someone else has said, is to consider the intent. Sometimes somebody says something offensive, and they don't even know they're being offensive. And in those cases, you can take them aside, explain to them why it's offended you, and hopefully they'll say, "Oh, dreadfully sorry, I did…

Actions which are done without thinking through the consequences are careless, reckless, or negligent. Each of us is free to let such people off the hook when we are the victim as a result of such actions. But just as we are not obligated to do so, neither are other victims. And suggesting that forbearance is what someone else ought to do is bullshit. A man who treats women poorly isn't ignorant, he's habitual, and t…

There's a difference between saying something of which you're not aware it can be offensive, and saying something without thinking about whether it can be offensive.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#165

Post by jdp23 » Fri, May 02, 2014, 11:05 PM UTC

benihana wrote: post #100

jdp23 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've shown Shanley's post to quite a few women in technology (including some diversity experts) and they all think her concrete suggestions are excellent. [As do I.] So I strongly suggest any guys who really want to help read it and act on the suggestions even if they would prefer a different framing. And specifically, which of her points do you disagree with? Are you saying that men don't need to work with each othe…

> I've shown Shanley's post to quite a few women in technology (including some diversity experts) and they all think her concrete suggestions are excellent. [As do I.] So I strongly suggest any guys who really want to help read it and act on the suggestions even if they would prefer a different framing. Sorry, but an anecdotal story from a random anonymous person on Hacker News isn't very convincing. Put another way:…

As somebody said elsewhere in the thread, Shanley is polarizing.

You're saying that since you and others regard Shanley's approach as hostile, guys should disregard what she says.

I'm saying that guys who want to help should find away to get past their initial reaction to an approach they see as hostile, look at her concrete suggestions, and act on them.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#166

Post by wutbrodo » Fri, May 02, 2014, 11:05 PM UTC

rfrey wrote: post #55

Judging others by their intentions seems like good advice in general, not just for offensive speech. Goodness knows I've been judging myself by intention more than deed for over 40 years. It's probably a courtesy I could extend to others more often.

It's sad that we've looped around to needing to specify this in interactions, when it used to be simply something that decent human beings did. It seems like the need to remind people to do so is only necessary in the (relatively) recent context of "the goodness or badness of your actions should be judged by how other people reacted to them".

Re: It's Different for Girls

#167

Post by pekk » Fri, May 02, 2014, 11:06 PM UTC

fmdud wrote: post #159

transfire wrote: post #139

Attractive woman are going to have such problems as a matter of course. Men are attracted to woman primarily based on their looks and confident men are going to act on their desires. If you are an attractive woman and want to do business under such potential circumstance, then your best bet is to try to make yourself look unattractive. You can't have it both ways. You can't lure a client with your looks and then alwa…

Sorry, this is a pretty fucking horrible comment. >You can't lure a client with your looks >And if instead, you just want to pin all the blame on men for being pigs and expect them to change, well good luck with that. It's perfectly reasonable to expect men to not commit sexual assault in the workplace. What world are you living in where anything like this is remotely acceptable?

You are right that it's a completely horrible comment. But even so, where did he say that we should expect men to "commit sexual assault" in the workplace? Flirting with someone or asking them to coffee is not sexual assault, though it is inappropriate for the workplace.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#168

Post by jamesaguilar » Fri, May 02, 2014, 11:10 PM UTC

guelo wrote: post #109

jawns wrote: post #6

I think the big takeaway here, not just for women but for anyone in the workplace who feels uncomfortable with or offended by something someone else has said, is to consider the intent. Sometimes somebody says something offensive, and they don't even know they're being offensive. And in those cases, you can take them aside, explain to them why it's offended you, and hopefully they'll say, "Oh, dreadfully sorry, I did…

That is not the big takeaway. The big takeaway is that straight white men's privilege gives them an advantage over everybody else since they face fewer obstacles such as having their hands forced onto a penis while closing a business deal.

Totally agree. It's always sad to see the response to this type of news on Hacker News. It inevitably immediately becomes something that is no longer about the problems women face, but a defense of the men. Like, how can you read the article and come back and say, "The big takeaway is, don't get mad at me if I'm just being a guy, because I mean well." What weird heuristic did you use to take the article as being primarily about you and the risk that you might be misperceived? That is not what it is about.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#169

Post by jacalata » Fri, May 02, 2014, 11:11 PM UTC

teacup50 wrote: post #156

guelo wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not the big takeaway. The big takeaway is that straight white men's privilege gives them an advantage over everybody else since they face fewer obstacles such as having their hands forced onto a penis while closing a business deal.

> straight white men's privilege The article didn't actually include the man's race.

yea, but it did say she was dealing with VCs 10 years ago, so an educated person can make a pretty confident guess.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#170

Post by jacalata » Fri, May 02, 2014, 11:15 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #163

alukima wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? What do you think is more likely to happen if the woman submits?- 1. She gets a promotion she doesn't totally doesn't deserve because she submitted to sexual harassment by her her boss at work. She's happy about this. 2. She submits to sexual harassment because she is afraid she'll lose her job if she doesn't. She feels dirty and exploited. And this is unfair to men how? Because they don't have to put up w…

> What do you think is more likely to happen I don't know. That's why I asked. Do you know? And there is a 3rd option where she refuses. Jokes/books/movies makes it seems like it happens all the time, but I don't know if it really does.

There is not a 3rd option of 'she refuses' for the scenario 'she doesn't refuse'.