The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#141

Post by oceanplexian » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 3:45 PM UTC

furyg3 wrote: post #83

gamegoblin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harder yet, Southeast Asia. Hundreds of pedestrians, tons of vehicle variety (some entirely makeshift), uncontrolled intersections, very little regard to any regulations.

In my mind structured road conditions are a prerequisite for driverless cars. I've been in many situations where conservative driving according to the rules of the road is not possible. In the West this is more limited to dense cities and exceptional situations. In India, though, this is the rule. If you waited for pedestrians to finish crossing or for cars to clear intersections, maintained a safe following distance…

Which is why Self Driving Cars™ will never be legal without strong AI.

There's no such thing as "Structured Road Conditions" anywhere in the world. Whether it's the ice storms of the Northeast US, radar interference, one lane two-way roads, potholes that can devour a wheel or roads that turn into mud -- the analog world is a harsh and unrealistic place for a technology that has never made its way out of cherry-picked municipalities in ideal conditions.

The last chapter is not city driving. It's the first chapter. So far Google has tackled only the lowest hanging fruit.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#142

Post by Zigurd » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 3:50 PM UTC

thefreeman wrote: post #134

josefresco wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll back that as soon as a system to force bicyclists to abide by traffic laws is required.

I have a feeling that the general populace of hacker news will disagree with us, but I am with you 100%. I live in a small-ish town on the outskirts of Philadelphia that happens to be in the middle of some sort of really popular biking route. Unfortunately, we have a ton of really small streets with cars parked on both sides. I understand and appreciate that cyclists have no other place to ride then in the street, an…

If the biking routes are that popular, one side of the street should be a bike lane separated from traffic. Until such time, cars need to be patient. Each one of those cyclists you are stuck behind is keeping a 3 ton multi-kilowatt biggest contributor to greenhouse gas emissions car off the road. Cars are huge polluters and energy consumers. Would you be equally pissed off if the residents along narrow streets had speed bumps installed to reduce noise from fast traffic?

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#143

Post by oceanplexian » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 3:55 PM UTC

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #81

cliveowen wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, I live in Rome and you'd really be surprised by the number of bikers who drive on the sidewalk to avoid morning traffic. I don't think Google cars are prepared to respond to people merging from the sidewalk, they're just unpredictable and nothing will ever change that.

Human drivers can't predict that either, and the Google car should have a much faster reaction time than a human driver.

Reaction time isn't the problem. Cars can't make moral decisions.

It's not uncommon that a pedestrian will jump in the road (sometimes intentionally to commit suicide). This happens to me personally on a daily basis in San Francisco. Sometimes the driver has a moral choice to ether run the car off the road killing people on the sidewalk or killing the pedestrian.

What do you expect a Self-Driving car to do in that situation?

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#144

Post by Zigurd » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 3:58 PM UTC

0x006A wrote: post #28

Looking forward to see how self-driving cars can handle traffic in a city like Mumbai or Cairo.

I'm sure there will be problems, but self-driving cars might be the only way to archieve orderly traffic in cultures where it's assumed that you "make" as many lanes as the width of the pavement will support.

Consider that only a minority of cars have to behave rationally w.r.t speeds in heavy traffic to prevent stop-and-go waves.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#145

Post by chockablock » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 3:59 PM UTC

thefreeman wrote: post #134

josefresco wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll back that as soon as a system to force bicyclists to abide by traffic laws is required.

I have a feeling that the general populace of hacker news will disagree with us, but I am with you 100%. I live in a small-ish town on the outskirts of Philadelphia that happens to be in the middle of some sort of really popular biking route. Unfortunately, we have a ton of really small streets with cars parked on both sides. I understand and appreciate that cyclists have no other place to ride then in the street, an…

>I understand and appreciate that cyclists have ... as much a right to the road as drivers.

The rest of your comment does not make me feel like you truly believe this.

Bikes are slower than cars. All road users deserve to be treated with respect and should follow the law.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#146

Post by anjc » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 4:00 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #5

This is hardly city driving. Try driving in a European city. (I love this project and can't wait to buy or rent a self-driving car)

I wonder if far more cars surrounding the driverless car will make it even more robust in some ways, for the short-medium term. If there are swarms of cars surrounding a driverless car, tricky things like hand signals and sign interpretation will be less important, as other human cars will hint at a correct traffic flow. It's surely far easier to detect the predict the motion of a gigantic car, as opposed to relying on interpreting roadwork signs.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#147

Post by anjc » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 4:01 PM UTC

Are their cameras visible spectrum ones? How will it work at night? Night vision? IR?

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#148

Post by Shivetya » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 4:04 PM UTC

anjc wrote: post #147

Are their cameras visible spectrum ones? How will it work at night? Night vision? IR?

Night, hell tell me how it works in snow, with fully covered roads. I would love to see how they make that leap that people do when looking at situations where the road is fully obscured, but you know exactly where its at based on objects your used too (like mailboxes/trees/etc) GPS ain't that accurate.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#149

Post by secabeen » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 4:07 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #113

DougWebb wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's quite that... If a human driver makes a mistake, the driver is liable. If the car makes a mistake, the car manufacturer is liable. This is true today; if you're driving along and you swerve into someone/something, that's your fault. But if your wheel falls off because of a manufacturing defect the car company is going to get sued. The car company faces a much higher liability risk, because they're…

There's two points about insurance: If you own the car, and assuming cars are still stolen / dented etc, then you'll want insurance the same way you insure your house and other possessions. However the bigger point is I doubt you'll own a car. More likely there will be lots of driverless taxi companies, and it'll just be very convenient to use your phone to call a taxi to take you where you want. In this case, the in…

Maybe. Many people (particularly parents) in suburban areas store a substantial amount of equipment in their cars, and can't effectively use a taxi-service. If I had to pack everything my kids need in a day in and out of shared car at every stop, it would add 10 minutes to each leg of my trip. Plus, do I haul the stuff I bought at the store on my way to work into the office so that my self-driving car can go somewhere else? What about my kid's stroller? That lives in the car.

In urban areas, people travel light, but that's not the case in sub-urban and rural areas.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#150

Post by oceanplexian » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 4:07 PM UTC

Zigurd wrote: post #142

thefreeman wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a feeling that the general populace of hacker news will disagree with us, but I am with you 100%. I live in a small-ish town on the outskirts of Philadelphia that happens to be in the middle of some sort of really popular biking route. Unfortunately, we have a ton of really small streets with cars parked on both sides. I understand and appreciate that cyclists have no other place to ride then in the street, an…

If the biking routes are that popular, one side of the street should be a bike lane separated from traffic. Until such time, cars need to be patient. Each one of those cyclists you are stuck behind is keeping a 3 ton multi-kilowatt biggest contributor to greenhouse gas emissions car off the road. Cars are huge polluters and energy consumers. Would you be equally pissed off if the residents along narrow streets had sp…

Cyclists are using roads that are subsidized and paid for by gasoline taxes and automobile registration fees. If you really want dedicated lanes and preeminence then pay your fair share. I don't think bicycling would be as attractive if cyclists paid for all the externalities of their hobby.