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In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

sarajchipps.com

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Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#51

Post by [deleted] »

dbloom wrote: post #25
jasallen wrote: post #6

For what it's worth, my opinion is that Jeff was replying to Shanley with what he considered to be a better approach to the topic. I think the lack of attribution was an oversight, and I don't think anything in Jeff's post "plagiarizes" or comes close to it. I also find Shanley's demeanor extremely rude, off-putting and counterproductive to a discussion on any topic.

> I also find Shanley's demeanor extremely rude, off-putting and counterproductive to a discussion on any topic. Linus Torvalds is even worse according to your definition of bad demeanor. Would you say that this helps or hurts his advocacy?

[deleted]

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#52

Post by [deleted] »

zeno334 wrote: post #14

The Cornell study she links to doesn't really address whether gender diversity leads to better results. It talks about informational diversity, value diversity, and a bunch of other stuff all rather gender neutral. It also finds that it's informational diversity that seems to have the biggest positive impact. I'm not sure if gender diversity is necessarily that important to info diversity. The first page or so of tha…

[deleted]

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#53

Post by danellis »

offbrand wrote: post #20
csense wrote: post #13

I think educating our young about technology, computer science, the hacker mindset, etc. is a good thing. As a kid, I'd really wished there'd been more mentoring, education, and general support available for young hackers. I would have been seriously pissed about discrimination -- and I daresay rightly so -- if exactly the sorts of things I wanted to participate in had existed, but had been closed to me because I was…

Obviously, educating all young people about computer science and technology is great. However, providing specialized groups and targeting minorities in the field is a great way to provide those folks with mentors and people they can look up to. It's nice when you can see someone like yourself who made it to the top of their field. Sometimes that is hard to see if you're a minority. I am a female programmer and starte…

So you're saying the issue is that we need to teach women to be more confident and less worried about what others will think of them?

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#55

Post by zecho »

SheepSlapper wrote: post #46
zorpner wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After talking with a couple of the commenters in question, it sounds like some people are using "plagiarism" not to mean that he specifically stole words from her post verbatim, but to mean that he "rewrote" what she wrote without giving her credit. It's not how I'd use the term, but I think that's what people are getting at with it. It's gotten a little weirder now, since Atwood is communicating with people about it…

He used the same title and wrote on the same topic. That's where the similarities end. Shanley says: * Get company funds diverted to the cause * Start a feminist bookclub for men * Get better management training in your company * Get women hired * Don’t speak at events or on panels where women speakers aren’t represented * Encourage diversity at conferences you go to Jeff says: * Abide by the Hacker School Rules * Re…

It doesn't feel like Shanley is shouting and random men, she is shouting at them. https://twitter.com/shanley/status/458817975500304384

Jeff called her out on it, making an unfortunately cliched reference to Letter from Birmingham Jail and people got heated again. His point has been constantly missed but he's not backing from it too much and in some places the meta discussion about the discussion has been somewhat enlightening itself. Jeff and I had a very good conversation on twitter about it with a woman saying we were tone policing, which I didn't even know was a thing people felt when talking but it is apparently.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#56

Post by mcphage »

zorpner wrote: post #36
SheepSlapper wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, I don't like either piece (cards on the table, I don't really care for Sara's either). Jeff thinks we shouldn't drink at work functions, because men + women + booze = sexism or something, and Shanley wants us to reverse the (perceived) discrimination with some sort of affirmative action for ladies. I was just pointing out that the two pieces have the same topic and the same 4 word title (because Jeff…

After talking with a couple of the commenters in question, it sounds like some people are using "plagiarism" not to mean that he specifically stole words from her post verbatim, but to mean that he "rewrote" what she wrote without giving her credit. It's not how I'd use the term, but I think that's what people are getting at with it. It's gotten a little weirder now, since Atwood is communicating with people about it…

> it sounds like some people are using "plagiarism" not to mean that he specifically stole words from her post verbatim, but to mean that he "rewrote" what she wrote without giving her credit. It's not how I'd use the term, but I think that's what people are getting at with it.

That's not plagiarism.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#57

Post by benihana »

zeno334 wrote: post #14

The Cornell study she links to doesn't really address whether gender diversity leads to better results. It talks about informational diversity, value diversity, and a bunch of other stuff all rather gender neutral. It also finds that it's informational diversity that seems to have the biggest positive impact. I'm not sure if gender diversity is necessarily that important to info diversity. The first page or so of tha…

A female coworker whom I respect greatly sent this link to me. It really resonated with me, more than almost anything about diversity.

http://www.catehuston.com/blog/2013/10/30/a-bs-metric-for-di...

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#58

Post by bloopbloopbloop »

jasallen wrote: post #6

For what it's worth, my opinion is that Jeff was replying to Shanley with what he considered to be a better approach to the topic. I think the lack of attribution was an oversight, and I don't think anything in Jeff's post "plagiarizes" or comes close to it. I also find Shanley's demeanor extremely rude, off-putting and counterproductive to a discussion on any topic.

I agree regarding her demeanor. The way that she speaks is extremely rude and antagonistic towards men. I expect to be treated with respect, versus having blanket statements applied to all men.

I'm also tired of being told that I am part of some vast feminist conspiracy "The White Male Patriarchy"; basically some fake boys club holding women back and excluding them - when the opposite is happening.

I hire on merit only, not on bogus numbers thrown at me by radical feminists.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#59

Post by bloopbloopbloop »

SheepSlapper wrote: post #9
zorpner wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's perhaps worth noting that there's a minor internet explosion happening right now about that article -- Shanley Kane wrote an article with the same title back in November ( https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 ) which was tweeted by Anil Dash on Tuesday ( https://twitter.com/anildash/status/458829201039429632 ). Jeff Atwood made a series of negative replies (since deleted, but screenshotted here: h…

Which I find humorous, because I just finished reading both, and the only thing the two articles share are their titles. Shanley's article is written with an actively aggressive tone towards men, while Jeff's seems much more reasoned and thought out. And both articles answer the question "what can men do" differently. So why the hullabaloo?

If these women (I would make the same claim for men) want to even begin being taken seriously, then people like Shanley and Julie Ann need to stop tweeting and writing aggressive emotional sentiment non-stop all day long.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#60

Post by waterhouse »

zeno334 wrote: post #14

The Cornell study she links to doesn't really address whether gender diversity leads to better results. It talks about informational diversity, value diversity, and a bunch of other stuff all rather gender neutral. It also finds that it's informational diversity that seems to have the biggest positive impact. I'm not sure if gender diversity is necessarily that important to info diversity. The first page or so of tha…

That study is really quite interesting. Here's my summary.

They looked at the effects of a few kinds of diversity on assigned work groups. They looked at "informational diversity", which they measured using educational background, job background, and position in the company; "social category diversity", which they took to be age and gender; and "value diversity", which they measured with a questionnaire.

Looking at their regression analyses, we see:

Informational diversity significantly increases actual performance (a number of .30), mildly decreases group efficiency (-.05), and mildly increases perceived performance (0.05), satisfaction (0.09), intent to remain (0.06), and commitment (.10).

Social category diversity moderately increases perceived performance (.16), satisfaction (.14), intent to remain (.12), and commitment (.16), while mildly decreasing actual performance (-.07) and group efficiency (-.03).

Value diversity moderately decreases group efficiency (-.17), actual performance (-.12), perceived performance (-.10), satisfaction (-.11), intent to remain (-.19), and commitment (-.19).

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