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In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

sarajchipps.com

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Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#11

Post by rhizome »

SheepSlapper wrote: post #9
zorpner wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's perhaps worth noting that there's a minor internet explosion happening right now about that article -- Shanley Kane wrote an article with the same title back in November ( https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 ) which was tweeted by Anil Dash on Tuesday ( https://twitter.com/anildash/status/458829201039429632 ). Jeff Atwood made a series of negative replies (since deleted, but screenshotted here: h…

Which I find humorous, because I just finished reading both, and the only thing the two articles share are their titles. Shanley's article is written with an actively aggressive tone towards men, while Jeff's seems much more reasoned and thought out. And both articles answer the question "what can men do" differently. So why the hullabaloo?

So why the hullabaloo?

Do you consider yourself an intelligent person such that upon reflection you might be able to come up with at least a couple of possible answers to your own question? Just curious.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#12

Post by offbrand »

buckbova wrote: post #8

> Women in 10 years need to be able to provide for themselves, and their families I had women professors in college. I have a woman software manager. I work with many women. And these women generally wanted to work in software development. Of course we aren't "building the internet" over here or making "internet history". Just some Joe and Jane Schmos plugging away. I see no need to push an agenda for more women in t…

The agenda is to make the tech community a more hospitable place for women who WANT to be in tech. It's not an agenda to force women into the industry just for the sake of numbers.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#13

Post by csense »

I think educating our young about technology, computer science, the hacker mindset, etc. is a good thing.

As a kid, I'd really wished there'd been more mentoring, education, and general support available for young hackers. I would have been seriously pissed about discrimination -- and I daresay rightly so -- if exactly the sorts of things I wanted to participate in had existed, but had been closed to me because I was the wrong race (white) and gender (male).

That, in a nutshell, is the problem with the "get girls to code" idea. "Get young people to code" is a better idea, since it's more inclusive.

It's always seemed strange to me how many people seem to think that the right way to solve discrimination is with more discrimination, just in the opposite direction.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#14

Post by zeno334 »

The Cornell study she links to doesn't really address whether gender diversity leads to better results. It talks about informational diversity, value diversity, and a bunch of other stuff all rather gender neutral. It also finds that it's informational diversity that seems to have the biggest positive impact. I'm not sure if gender diversity is necessarily that important to info diversity. The first page or so of that study is also fairly interesting in that it references a bunch of other studies which when taken together paint a rather ambiguous picture regarding the positive impact of any kind of diversity.

I don't feel her second point says much about the need for gender diversity either. It seems to me that it's the people who use the internet that actually write this history rather than the people who merely build the architecture. I think it would be far more useful to see gender diversity in online arts, writing, social activism and so on, rather than in the teams who build that blog engine that allows all genders to express their ideas.

I don't see how the last point has anything to do with gender either. If it's technology that will produce most jobs in the future then we should encourage all people to take more training in technology.

I read the article precisely because I was interested in an answer to that why question and also because I was happy to read that she does not think asking this question is offensive (it's often the opposite). I'm not very satisfied with her answer though. I'd appreciate it if someone else could contribute to this discussion.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#15

Post by zorpner »

SheepSlapper wrote: post #9
zorpner wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's perhaps worth noting that there's a minor internet explosion happening right now about that article -- Shanley Kane wrote an article with the same title back in November ( https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 ) which was tweeted by Anil Dash on Tuesday ( https://twitter.com/anildash/status/458829201039429632 ). Jeff Atwood made a series of negative replies (since deleted, but screenshotted here: h…

Which I find humorous, because I just finished reading both, and the only thing the two articles share are their titles. Shanley's article is written with an actively aggressive tone towards men, while Jeff's seems much more reasoned and thought out. And both articles answer the question "what can men do" differently. So why the hullabaloo?

If the two articles existed in isolation, I would be inclined to agree (though I think Jeff's is actually pretty poorly thought out -- as the man himself said: https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/273551344533639169). But there's a clear, obvious chain of events here that starts with Jeff reading Shanley's post, criticizing it, then writing his own version with the same title without acknowledging why.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#16

Post by buckbova »

offbrand wrote: post #12
buckbova wrote: post #8

> Women in 10 years need to be able to provide for themselves, and their families I had women professors in college. I have a woman software manager. I work with many women. And these women generally wanted to work in software development. Of course we aren't "building the internet" over here or making "internet history". Just some Joe and Jane Schmos plugging away. I see no need to push an agenda for more women in t…

The agenda is to make the tech community a more hospitable place for women who WANT to be in tech. It's not an agenda to force women into the industry just for the sake of numbers.

Depends on who you ask. Some people are advocating just that.

https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0

>Get women hired. Make your workplace give a fuck about hiring diverse teams. You are in a wonderful position to advocate and agitate for more diversity in your workplace. Draw attention to your company’s demographics internally, bring in speakers on building team diversity, start a committee dedicated to auditing and improving the hiring process. Oh and make sure this doesn’t just end up in a position where you just hire a few white women and call it a day. Not good enough.

I don't agree with diversity for the sake of diversity. So no, I'll hire the most qualified candidate regardless of race/gender.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#17

Post by SheepSlapper »

zorpner wrote: post #15
SheepSlapper wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which I find humorous, because I just finished reading both, and the only thing the two articles share are their titles. Shanley's article is written with an actively aggressive tone towards men, while Jeff's seems much more reasoned and thought out. And both articles answer the question "what can men do" differently. So why the hullabaloo?

If the two articles existed in isolation, I would be inclined to agree (though I think Jeff's is actually pretty poorly thought out -- as the man himself said: https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/273551344533639169 ). But there's a clear, obvious chain of events here that starts with Jeff reading Shanley's post, criticizing it, then writing his own version with the same title without acknowledging why.

For the record, I don't like either piece (cards on the table, I don't really care for Sara's either). Jeff thinks we shouldn't drink at work functions, because men + women + booze = sexism or something, and Shanley wants us to reverse the (perceived) discrimination with some sort of affirmative action for ladies.

I was just pointing out that the two pieces have the same topic and the same 4 word title (because Jeff was being snarky. If that's a crime, lock me up now). Otherwise, they couldn't be more different. Shouting "plagiarism" in this case seems pretty disingenuous, and feels like people are manufacturing outrage just for outrage's sake. Being that this is the internet, I can't fathom why I expected anything different...

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#18

Post by chc »

rhizome wrote: post #10
jasallen wrote: post #6

For what it's worth, my opinion is that Jeff was replying to Shanley with what he considered to be a better approach to the topic. I think the lack of attribution was an oversight, and I don't think anything in Jeff's post "plagiarizes" or comes close to it. I also find Shanley's demeanor extremely rude, off-putting and counterproductive to a discussion on any topic.

rude, off-putting and counterproductive to a discussion on any topic. Manners were an invention of the aristocracy. my opinion is that Jeff was replying to Shanley with what he considered to be a better approach to the topic. Except that Jeff can't even bring himself to acknowledge Shanley in his post while stealing her title and structure after making an ass out of himself on Twitter such that he deleted the (MLK-sp…

Manners are a solution to the problem "Disagreements escalate out of control and only come to harmful resolutions." There were expectations of civility long before there was a concept of an aristocracy.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#19

Post by chc »

csense wrote: post #13

I think educating our young about technology, computer science, the hacker mindset, etc. is a good thing. As a kid, I'd really wished there'd been more mentoring, education, and general support available for young hackers. I would have been seriously pissed about discrimination -- and I daresay rightly so -- if exactly the sorts of things I wanted to participate in had existed, but had been closed to me because I was…

> It's always seemed strange to me how many people seem to think that the right way to solve discrimination is with more discrimination, just in the opposite direction.

Is that as strange as believing that ignoring a problem will make it go away? Because the only alternatives I can see to "Actively try to attract more of the underrepresented group" are "Do nothing about the gender inequality" — which obviously won't fix it — and "Try to push away more of the overrepresented group," which is not what anyone wants.

Also, your use of the word "discrimination" here is a bit odd. It seems to imply that men are being excluded from tech by these programs, which is demonstrably not the case.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#20

Post by offbrand »

csense wrote: post #13

I think educating our young about technology, computer science, the hacker mindset, etc. is a good thing. As a kid, I'd really wished there'd been more mentoring, education, and general support available for young hackers. I would have been seriously pissed about discrimination -- and I daresay rightly so -- if exactly the sorts of things I wanted to participate in had existed, but had been closed to me because I was…

Obviously, educating all young people about computer science and technology is great. However, providing specialized groups and targeting minorities in the field is a great way to provide those folks with mentors and people they can look up to. It's nice when you can see someone like yourself who made it to the top of their field. Sometimes that is hard to see if you're a minority.

I am a female programmer and started really young. In 7th grade, I remember being afraid that people would find out I liked computers and had a website. I was afraid of standing out and being labeled a nerd. I didn't know any girls who liked computers and probably wouldn't have signed up for a program that wasn't specifically for girls. Being a kid in middle school is a tricky time and having a safe environment to learn and be yourself around like minded people can make a big difference.

To this day, I still feel quite a bit more comfortable at women coding events than tech talks where I am one of 3 women with 100 guys. I definitely think specialized groups can provide a more conducive place for learning when you're in a minority group. I think calling it discrimination is a bit short sighted.

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