Live data from Hacker News

LibreSSL: FIPS mode is not coming back

marc.info

21–30 of 98 posts

Re: LibreSSL: FIPS mode is not coming back

#21
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the primer. Can anybody comment as to why FIPS mode in OpenSSL is considered harmful?

My understanding is the FIPS requires that the SSL library implements a certain suite of protocols (including the Dual EC DRBG discussed in the linked mailing list post) which have known cryptographic weaknesses.

This is not true.

FIPS requires that any 'approved' included crypto algorithm implementations are self-tested, and pass a verification program (just a big bunch of somewhat poorly conceived known answer tests).

It also has a list of 'allowed' algorithms, which don't need to be tested but can be offered by a FIPS crypto module.

The CSPRNG used for key generation must be of an approved construction, but there are a number of choices ranging from stupid shit nobody sane would choose (Dual EC DRBG) to ones which are trivial variations on hashes, HMAC or block ciphers in OFB or CTR mode. Sadly, it says nothing about the quality or construction of actual entropy sources.

Naturally, everything not 'approved' or 'allowed' cannot be offered by a FIPS crypto module.

On the plus side, this means vendors can't offer proprietary stupid-shit like LFSR stream ciphers. Unfortunately, the approved and allowed list rarely keeps up with good quality or fixed crypto (you'll not find any eSTREAM finalists, or EdDSA, or deterministic DSA, or curve25519 ECDH, for example).

Also, the rules are pretty poorly enforced: you'll still find new FIPS certificates issued for boxes which do TLS Source: I used to make FIPS-approved HSMs. AMA? :)

Re: LibreSSL: FIPS mode is not coming back

#22
post #3

The OpenBSD people sure are abrasive, but they deserve a ton of praise for taking on a tough task that no one else was willing to do, and for fixing the damn mess. Between FIPS, the NIST and the OpenSSL foundation it's amazing that crypto even works.

That's part of the culture. It's nothing personal. Don't take it to heart if what they say offends you.

Re: LibreSSL: FIPS mode is not coming back

#23
post #3

The OpenBSD people sure are abrasive, but they deserve a ton of praise for taking on a tough task that no one else was willing to do, and for fixing the damn mess. Between FIPS, the NIST and the OpenSSL foundation it's amazing that crypto even works.

[deleted]

Re: LibreSSL: FIPS mode is not coming back

#24
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the primer. Can anybody comment as to why FIPS mode in OpenSSL is considered harmful?

FIPS compliance includes support for dubious cryptography and protocol standards. While it doesn't necessitate things like Dual_EC and extended_random, it does create a hospitable environment for their inclusion. "FIPS support" also demands configurations that rule out some cryptography, some of it bad, some of it reasonable. FIPS support doesn't require OpenSSL not to implement those algorithms, but it does require…

Also, I believe that only binaries can be FIPS certified, not source code, so there are times when one has to use an old, out-dated openssl binary in order to be compliant.

Re: LibreSSL: FIPS mode is not coming back

#26
working on a FIPS embedded network product right at the moment, gosh it's a maze to get even started, I'm still going to use the now patched openssl for this, as really, the alternatives are not many, and openssl remains to be the most deployed one in the field. checked NSS but its usage in embedded device is rare, other ssls(ploarssl, matrixssl) may work, but again openssl just wins on the popularity side, in a huge way.

Re: LibreSSL: FIPS mode is not coming back

#27
post #3

The OpenBSD people sure are abrasive, but they deserve a ton of praise for taking on a tough task that no one else was willing to do, and for fixing the damn mess. Between FIPS, the NIST and the OpenSSL foundation it's amazing that crypto even works.

I've got to say that I like the abrasiveness. The security industry is rife with imposters and pretenders. All of the artifice and bogus claims make it very easy for people, organizations, industries... hell, governments to be misled into devoting huge amounts of resources into propping up what amounts to security theater, which is generally actively harmful. Abrasiveness and a willingness to ruffle the feathers of p…

There is hardly a shortage of abrasiveness in the security industry.

That said, I find zero things wrong with OpenBSD's work to make LibreSSL. If anyone doesn't like it, I'll offer them their money back.

Re: LibreSSL: FIPS mode is not coming back

#28
post #23
post #3

The OpenBSD people sure are abrasive, but they deserve a ton of praise for taking on a tough task that no one else was willing to do, and for fixing the damn mess. Between FIPS, the NIST and the OpenSSL foundation it's amazing that crypto even works.

[deleted]

I know you're trolling, but some people might not, so I thought it might be helpful to point out that they are actually discovering and fixing vulnerabilities. For example, CVE-2010-5298:

http://www.tedunangst.com/flak/post/analysis-of-openssl-free...

Re: LibreSSL: FIPS mode is not coming back

#29
post #3

The OpenBSD people sure are abrasive, but they deserve a ton of praise for taking on a tough task that no one else was willing to do, and for fixing the damn mess. Between FIPS, the NIST and the OpenSSL foundation it's amazing that crypto even works.

This stance is counterproductive in my eyes.

Lots of security standards, including state/local government and some healthcare environments require FIPS compliance. FIPS isn't perfect, but screens out low-quality crypto implementations that most organizations lack the expertise to evaluate.

Dual_EC and that ilk is obviously a serious problem, but FIPS validation addresses other pertinent problems -- like my doctor's office securing my private data with a more trivially flawed/bogus encryption implementation.

Post reply on HN