Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Do Men Suck At Friendship?

mensjournal.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 261 posts

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#211

Post by aestra »

theorique wrote: post #198
ashwinaj wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. Strangers are outwardly friendly for no apparent reason. The worst part was when I met them again, many of them wouldn't recognize me! I was mainly referring to the convenience/activity/mentor friends described in the article.

You're right. Strangers are outwardly friendly for no apparent reason. Politeness norms. For whatever reason, in the US, there's a certain base line expectation of cheeriness. Especially in service staff like waiters or flight attendants. ("Hi, welcome to McTuckey's. My name's Megan and I'll be taking care of you tonight.")

This really bothers me. I don't care if someone is "cheery" as long as they just do their job. People justify tipping service personnel (bar tenders, waitstaff) over them getting a fair salary because if they didn't tip "how would I get good service? There's no incentive without a tip." I believe some people believe "good service" means fakely cheery while to me it is "you brought me my food." If you aren't faking a smile and elevating your voice you are being "rude."

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#212

Post by aestra »

Uberphallus wrote: post #77
ashwinaj wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I said outwardly friendly. As in like we grew up together in the same neighborhood kind of friendly.

Same happened when I had interviews for American companies. They were so excited about everything and overly enthusiastic I can't help but thing I'm being interviewed by psychos.

In the United States this is considered a "normal" amount of politeness. In some other cultures it is considered weird and fake. Some Americans go abroad and complain everyone was "rude" to them not realizing the cultural differences.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#213

Post by meric »

kenshiro_o wrote: post #192
meric wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea that feminist thinkers should be an authority on male friendships, since by definition feminist thinkers think from the point of women, and here we are discussing friendships between men. I've a couple of female "friends"[1], and generally when talking to them I often feel all they're doing is telling me how right I am to feel in such and such way, frequently highlighting the differenc…

"If I was "Matt" in the article, and if the author was my best friend, and a very important one at that, I would rather divorce my wife than move, if the move would endanger the friendship I had with the author". Wow that's taking it to one extreme. What if this job was extremely rewarding financially for your wive or turned out to be what she really wanted to do for years? Would you not support her in this endeavour…

"Wow that's taking it to one extreme. What if this job was extremely rewarding financially for your wive or turned out to be what she really wanted to do for years? Would you not support her in this endeavour?"

I've assumed the best friend in question was very important and the move would endanger the friendship. Let's also assume my wife is important in my life. Yes, I would emotionally and perhaps materially support her in her endeavor, accept our differences in the paths of our lives, and separate/divorce. Though if we have kids, I imagine I would fight to keep them, probably trying to persuade her that her financially rewarding job may also be highly stressful and she might not want yet another responsibility.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#214

Post by aestra »

theorique wrote: post #194
icebraining wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was mostly a friendly jab, not a real criticism. I don't think I can ever use the word "heteronormative" in a completely serious way.

Well, it's technically correct. The sense I get is that most people aim their "generic" comments at the 95% (straight, cis, etc). Because reality, in a statistical sense, is heteronormative. But being inclusive is kind as well. There's no exact answer - if you are 100% inclusive, people scoff at you being "politically correct". If you're not, different people get offended.

It is more like aiming generic comments at a subset of the population makes that subset "normal" and the other "abnormal" and one must conform to the "normal."

I always hate it when people say "women do this" or "women think this" because I often don't do or think that. Plus within the women I know there is a large range of personalities, actions, thoughts, beliefs, motivations, etc. It reduces women down to a stereotype.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#215

Post by meric »

zethraeus wrote: post #135
meric wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea that feminist thinkers should be an authority on male friendships, since by definition feminist thinkers think from the point of women, and here we are discussing friendships between men. I've a couple of female "friends"[1], and generally when talking to them I often feel all they're doing is telling me how right I am to feel in such and such way, frequently highlighting the differenc…

'Feminism' (is a bad name and) does not by definition imply thinking from the point of view of a woman. Feminism is usually defined approximately as 'anti-sexism'. Often that involves discussing issues where women are worse off- but not really in this article!

"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.[3]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

I can tell we're going to have a lot of disagreements over the definition and the concept of Feminism so I'm just going to suggest maybe you could edit the wikipedia entry on Feminism and change the definition there to include the possibilities of inequalities against men.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#216

Post by aestra »

scythe wrote: post #58

I would like to take a moment to remind everyone that this article refers primarily to non-poor white men in the OECD, and that most people are not WEIRD: http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/jvt002/brainmind/readings/h... In particular attempting to draw conclusions about innate (genetic) behavior from this skewed sample is highly subject to confounding.

>In particular attempting to draw conclusions about innate (genetic) behavior from this skewed sample is highly subject to confounding.

Was the author trying to do that? It didn't read like that to me at all. He tried to explain some cultural trends that contribute, etc.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#217

Post by meric »

brazzy wrote: post #172
meric wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea that feminist thinkers should be an authority on male friendships, since by definition feminist thinkers think from the point of women, and here we are discussing friendships between men. I've a couple of female "friends"[1], and generally when talking to them I often feel all they're doing is telling me how right I am to feel in such and such way, frequently highlighting the differenc…

> when talking to them I often feel all they're doing is telling me how right I am to feel in such and such way, frequently highlighting the differences between "us" and "them", whoever "them" might be, whenever the opportunity arise. (I suppose you'd call that 'gossip'). It's called "emotional validation", and widely acknowledged as something that women are notoriously keen on and men are notoriously bad at providin…

Yes, it would be called that. I suppose the I'm not entirely comfortable with it all the time because when someone is doing it to me, they're just saying I'm right because I think I'm right, rather than telling them what they think. I suppose they could actually be feeling the same way as I do about the issue but that would only have happened because through the way I told the the story I managed to transfer my emotions to them. Sometimes I feel I'm talking to a mirror rather than a friend. Of course at other times it's just hearing what I want to hear and I suppose everyone would enjoy that from time to time. It's not something I want my friend to exclusively do to me all the time whenever we're communicating however.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#218

Post by aestra »

non0nsense wrote: post #29

How are we really defining friendship here? I've mostly found in my experiences that females value self-serving relationships that build them up. Meaningless values of 'friendship' where they have no contrast for a real, meaningful relationship. See how sexism swings both ways? Who the heck posts this kind of drivel?

You've been hanging out with some terrible people.

I actually didn't find this article sexist or attacking.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#219

Post by coldtea »

ThomPete wrote: post #207
thelettere wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are whole field of scientific study based almost entirely on self-reports. As such, there has been much research done on its veracity, which has shown that it is largely valid and reliable when reporting on simple things (like friendship behavior) so long as it's anonymous, does not require introspection(1), and there is no fear of reprisal(2). The 2007 study meets all those requirements, so I see no scientific…

I am not sure I understand what you are claiming here? Are you saying that self-reports (a.k.a. anecdotal evidence) has happened so often on this subject that it in itself has created a big enough dataset to label it a proper study?

No, he is claiming that self-reports are not anti-scientific, as the OP (you?) claims them to be.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#220

Post by protomyth »

wikiburner wrote: post #94
Xcelerate wrote: post #78

> That's because nearly all research into healthy aging has found that the key to a long, happy life is not diet or exercise but strong social connections – that is, friendships. Loneliness accelerates age-related declines in cognition and motor function, while a single good friend has been shown to make as much as a 10-year difference in overall life expectancy. This makes me sad :( My mother passed away from cancer…

I would get him a dog. I would also set him up on Skype so that you and your sister can interact with him in a personable way more often.

add a social hobby (e.g. golf) to that list for some out of house time
Post reply on HN