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Do Men Suck At Friendship?

mensjournal.com

191–200 of 261 posts

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#191
post #160
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is more divorce now because it is no longer a burdensome shame to break from a joyless marriage. People change and mature in different ways, and young people aren't known for making sensible decisions affecting the rest of their life. In ye olde days, people would stay with abusive (or boring) spouses purely because the social stigma of leaving was worse. These days that stigma is largely gone in much of the We…

What you say is true, but the grandparent is arguing why people want a divorce and why today's marriages are boring for participants. The implication is that even if access to divorce had been as easy 100 years ago as it is now, people would still divorce less frequently than they do now, because of the extended family stuff.

This might not be completely it.

Human physiology is weird.

Only in recent history have we married for love and in some cultures you don't marry for love. Previously marriage was more like a business arrangement between families. They were also more final because of things like coverture men generally owned all the property of his wife. The woman tended to lose their own identity and become an extension of their husband's identity. My grandma exclusively refereed to herself as "Mrs. HusandFirstName HusbandLastName." For example "Mrs. John Smith." She was never her own name after marriage. My mom said at the DMV they would specifically say on forms "women use own first name."

This sounds crazy but humans have the ability to manufacture happiness.

Since the partners in the relationships of yesteryear didn't have much of a choice in the matter they subconsciously were happier because they didn't have an easy way out nor did they make the choice. They couldn't decide otherwise so their brains manufactured happiness with the situation they were in. This isn't really "fake" happiness, it is real, there is nothing different about it. It is how the human brain works. There is nothing bad about this. It is kinda like a psychological immune system.

If divorce is easy and socially acceptable and you choose your partner from millions of potential partners your subconscious thinks "maybe someone else can make me happier" and you are less happy with your choice.

Our brains "make" happiness with the life we have if we can't choose an alternative.

Daniel Gilbert has a great book on this aspect of humans ability to alter their own happiness - "Stumbling on Happiness"

Here is his TED talk on the matter which has a lot of the same material as the book - http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy

The following is from my memory and might not be 100%:

For example - he cites a study in which students in a photo class were asked to choose and submit one of the photos to get blown up and framed. One group of students were told that the photo they choose was final and they couldn't change it and the other group was told they had two weeks time to change their minds and submit another one. When the students received their final photos the group who couldn't change their photo were more happy with the photo they choose than the students who had the two week option of changing their photo.

Another one is asking people to rank several Monet paintings on how much they like them. Then they got one to take home. When the researchers came back and asked them to rank the paintings again they ranked the one they owned higher. They like the painting more because they owned it.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#192
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author explicitly acknowledges that the traditional "girly" friendship may not be the optimal. And implies that male friendships can be deeper than shared activities without turning into such relationships: > At the same time, a wave of feminist sociologists and psychologists began describing female friendship, with all its confessional talk, as the optimal model. > Many feminist thinkers now see those views as o…

I'm uncomfortable with the idea that feminist thinkers should be an authority on male friendships, since by definition feminist thinkers think from the point of women, and here we are discussing friendships between men. I've a couple of female "friends"[1], and generally when talking to them I often feel all they're doing is telling me how right I am to feel in such and such way, frequently highlighting the differenc…

"If I was "Matt" in the article, and if the author was my best friend, and a very important one at that, I would rather divorce my wife than move, if the move would endanger the friendship I had with the author".

Wow that's taking it to one extreme. What if this job was extremely rewarding financially for your wive or turned out to be what she really wanted to do for years? Would you not support her in this endeavour?

I think true, lasting male friendship should not necessarily imply frequent meetings among friends, but it should definitely entail something along the lines of "I've got your back, and I know you've got mine buddy". Also a lot of things in male friendship do not need to be explicitly communicated unlike female friendship (No need for endless text/messages saying "I love you man!").

It's very important to have friends with whom you share common interests and activities, but they are not necessarily your best friends. Your best friends are generally the ones you've known for decade(s) and regardless of where they are , will be ready to jump in a field of fire with you and come to your aid when times are tough. There's an unwritten contract among best friends; there's an unpronounced oath among men who hold each other in high esteem.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men's Journal is basically Cosmo. Bullshit journalism and fluff.

Which leads to the inevitable question of what in gods name this garbage is doing on the front page of HN

It might be due to its linkbait title :/

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about: "straight men and straight women can't be friends because the sex part always gets in the way". Better now?

It was mostly a friendly jab, not a real criticism. I don't think I can ever use the word "heteronormative" in a completely serious way.

Well, it's technically correct. The sense I get is that most people aim their "generic" comments at the 95% (straight, cis, etc). Because reality, in a statistical sense, is heteronormative. But being inclusive is kind as well. There's no exact answer - if you are 100% inclusive, people scoff at you being "politically correct". If you're not, different people get offended.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#195

> That's because nearly all research into healthy aging has found that the key to a long, happy life is not diet or exercise but strong social connections – that is, friendships. Loneliness accelerates age-related declines in cognition and motor function, while a single good friend has been shown to make as much as a 10-year difference in overall life expectancy. This makes me sad :( My mother passed away from cancer…

I don't know how old your dad is but I suggest he go to the local senior center.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#196
post #128

> That's because nearly all research into healthy aging has found that the key to a long, happy life is not diet or exercise but strong social connections – that is, friendships. Loneliness accelerates age-related declines in cognition and motor function, while a single good friend has been shown to make as much as a 10-year difference in overall life expectancy. This makes me sad :( My mother passed away from cancer…

On the other hand, it's not your responsibility to arrange for your dad what you think is best for him. He's an adult and will try to make the most of his life and will succeed or fail to be happy on his own. I'm a father and I wouldn't want my kids to patch my lonely life if I have one: they have their own lives and I have mine and it's certainly nice to see them sometimes but it can never be a deal breaker.

The OP can't "make" his/her father do things, however they can suggest things. They implied the father wants to/is open to new experiences.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#197
I wasn't sure I was supposed to be expecting more as a guy?

Most of my male-to-male interaction occurs because of shared interest. Usually a 'man activity' such as working on a car, house, or yard, working out, riding motorcycles, that sort of thing.

But there's no talk about feelings or things like that. I could help a buddy cut down a couple trees and nothing of the sort gets discussed. I'll come home and be asked, "So did Mike say how it's going with his new job/girlfriend/whatever?"

I reply, "No. Was I supposed to ask him about that?"

I think the only time there's any real discussion about things of that sort is the other activity I share with other guys: drinking alcohol

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, I've noticed this when I'm in America. Everyone is normally outwardly very friendly, but there's always the feeling that they don't give a shit about the encounter you're having and they're only even talking to you out of some perverse sense of politeness. It was even more strange for me because often our conversations would be relatively honest and about somewhat personal topics (not just the weather, w…

You're right. Strangers are outwardly friendly for no apparent reason. The worst part was when I met them again, many of them wouldn't recognize me! I was mainly referring to the convenience/activity/mentor friends described in the article.

You're right. Strangers are outwardly friendly for no apparent reason.

Politeness norms. For whatever reason, in the US, there's a certain base line expectation of cheeriness. Especially in service staff like waiters or flight attendants. ("Hi, welcome to McTuckey's. My name's Megan and I'll be taking care of you tonight.")

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#199
post #7

This article implies that living a long life should be the ultimate driving goal behind our actions. What's wrong with "convenience", "mentor", or "activity" friendships? They sound perfectly logical and reasonable to me. Just because these kind of friendships might not contribute as much to longevity doesn't make them wrong.

The problem with "convenience", "mentor", or "activity" friendships, as the article later explains, is that they tend to rapidly go away when the convenience, mentorship or particular activity ceases. If you want a long-term friendship, then you'd need to push those relationships beyond the convenience/mentorship/activity to have more than that single tie that may randomly disappear.

And why do you want long-term friendships? The article seemed to imply that they were good because they were healthy.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#200
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of cringing, the adjective you're looking for is 'American'.

I wonder when "America" ceased to mean "the two continents North and South America" and started to mean "USA" in the heads of US citizens. There's a reason why "European" isn't synonymous to "German", and why "Asian" isn't synonymous to "Chinese".

Here is a great video explaining the history of "America" and its usage around the world:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVMZC4y4zXU

tl;dw? Skip to 3:40.

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