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My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

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Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#101

Post by tjmc »

zecho wrote: post #42

Maybe don't sign these types of contracts? We are fortunate enough that even the most mediocre among us can hold out for the next employer that doesn't demand this kind of control over you, or start your own company. I don't give a shit what a company says about their culture of work/life balance or whatever. If I see blanket IP clauses unrelated to non-compete, or like arbitration clauses that remove us from civil c…

Why is the alternative to signing walking away? Whenever I've been handed terms like this in a contract I've struck them off and explained why prior to signing. I've never lost a job because of it and it's usually a sub-10 minute conversation.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#102

Post by jjoonathan »

wyager wrote: post #67
ISL wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong work. Not everyone has the will, nor the financial wherewithal, to do such a thing.

>Not everyone has the will... to do such a thing. This may just be crotchety old man talk, but sometimes I wonder if the extremely protective child-rearing (particularly in schools) that seems to be abundant today will make future adults particularly susceptible to this kind of bullying. If you never have to deal with this kind of social stress as a child, how can you possibly deal with it as an adult? Perhaps gettin…

Which do you think is more likely to affect assertiveness: overprotective parents or a lack of leverage in the employment market?

I take the fact that you reduced OP's statement

> Not everyone has the will, nor the financial wherewithal, to do such a thing.

to

>Not everyone has the will... to do such a thing.

as an indication that you think economics plays a secondary role in this story. I disagree and I'd like to know why you think that's the case.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#103

Post by crdoconnor »

tjmc wrote: post #101
zecho wrote: post #42

Maybe don't sign these types of contracts? We are fortunate enough that even the most mediocre among us can hold out for the next employer that doesn't demand this kind of control over you, or start your own company. I don't give a shit what a company says about their culture of work/life balance or whatever. If I see blanket IP clauses unrelated to non-compete, or like arbitration clauses that remove us from civil c…

Why is the alternative to signing walking away? Whenever I've been handed terms like this in a contract I've struck them off and explained why prior to signing. I've never lost a job because of it and it's usually a sub-10 minute conversation.

There is a limit to how much an employer can ask for in negotiations before I start to assume bad faith.

A 2 year non-compete covering the entire industry I work in? That's not even halfway reasonable. You're actively trying to fuck me over.

I don't care that it's not enforceable. You're still trying to fuck me over.

I don't care that you're willing to compromise on that clause when I argue. You're still trying to fuck me over.

This is not going to be a productive relationship even if I do get you to remove that clause because you started out trying to fuck me over.

Every employer who attempts this kind of bullshit is a cancer upon this industry. They are preying upon people's tendencies to assume honesty and good faith.

A reasonable clause to put in is a 6 month non-compete in the very specific industry covering maybe two or three companies. That would be a good starting point for negotiations.

I've accepted jobs where they tried to pull this kind of bullshit on me right out of the gate. I used to think I was smart getting them to slice the contract up and make it reasonable like you suggested.

Maybe it was, but it still would have been smarter to never have taken the job in the first place. Those people made terrible employers and are best just avoided.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#104

Post by CeramicTeapot »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #99
keypusher wrote: post #4

I've always been particularly confused by the contract clauses which specify that all work of the employee during their time at the company is property of the company itself. Does this mean that if I develop some completely unrelated software in my spare time while working as a programmer at a large company, that the software I created at home also belongs to my employer? What if I was to write a book during that sam…

In Google's contract they also stipulate that if you use any of your own stuff in your job at Google you grant Google a perpetual worldwide license to use, modify, and sublicense that material without any compensation to you. Its sort of like 'copyleft' except it sucks into Google anything you touch, and use at least once at work. And always be dubious when the company lawyer says, "Well that is what it says but that…

That is a verbal amendment to your employment contract, and as long as you do not sign an additional contract that somehow says "No, this actually means this" feel free to fuck shit up in court. That is a breach of contract and the company will be liable for damages (if any) and at least be required to give up any assumed license.

Verbal employment contracts are enforceable in in all 50 states.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#105

Post by Argorak »

CeramicTeapot wrote: post #104
ChuckMcM wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Google's contract they also stipulate that if you use any of your own stuff in your job at Google you grant Google a perpetual worldwide license to use, modify, and sublicense that material without any compensation to you. Its sort of like 'copyleft' except it sucks into Google anything you touch, and use at least once at work. And always be dubious when the company lawyer says, "Well that is what it says but that…

That is a verbal amendment to your employment contract, and as long as you do not sign an additional contract that somehow says "No, this actually means this" feel free to fuck shit up in court. That is a breach of contract and the company will be liable for damages (if any) and at least be required to give up any assumed license. Verbal employment contracts are enforceable in in all 50 states.

Verbal agreements are also very hard to prove.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#106

Post by [deleted] »

crdoconnor wrote: post #103
tjmc wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the alternative to signing walking away? Whenever I've been handed terms like this in a contract I've struck them off and explained why prior to signing. I've never lost a job because of it and it's usually a sub-10 minute conversation.

There is a limit to how much an employer can ask for in negotiations before I start to assume bad faith. A 2 year non-compete covering the entire industry I work in? That's not even halfway reasonable. You're actively trying to fuck me over. I don't care that it's not enforceable. You're still trying to fuck me over. I don't care that you're willing to compromise on that clause when I argue. You're still trying to fu…

[deleted]

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#107

Post by [deleted] »

pekk wrote: post #81
wyager wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not everyone has the will... to do such a thing. This may just be crotchety old man talk, but sometimes I wonder if the extremely protective child-rearing (particularly in schools) that seems to be abundant today will make future adults particularly susceptible to this kind of bullying. If you never have to deal with this kind of social stress as a child, how can you possibly deal with it as an adult? Perhaps gettin…

Being humiliated and beaten as a child with no control over the situation is not "training" for anything. It's abundantly clear that you did not experience that and have no idea what it is like for a child. Let's hope as a crotchety old man that nobody ever decides to show you what it's like when you're stuck in a nursing home where no one believes or cares to help you because of some stupid reason like that it shoul…

[deleted]

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#108

Post by Argorak »

PythonicAlpha wrote: post #20

Don't think, that in Germany the situation is that much better. We might not have those agreements in the contracts, since in Germany there are (luckily) many regulations what can be put into contracts. But the German law has also some specialties: For example, when you make an invention in your free time, even when it has nothing to do with your current job, you must first ask your employer, if he wants to buy the i…

The law in question is the Arbeitnehmererfindungsgesetz (Employee Invention law). Also, there are a few subtleties:

a) You have to do that if you intend to charge money for the invention during the time of your contract. You can quit and then start using your invention. Just don't do it while your contract is running (this avoids you building a competition to your employer). b) The employer has to immediately patent or copyright the work and give you a compensation for licensing it.

This is really rather a forced license contract.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#109

Post by sizzle »

A_COMPUTER wrote: post #59
zecho wrote: post #42

Maybe don't sign these types of contracts? We are fortunate enough that even the most mediocre among us can hold out for the next employer that doesn't demand this kind of control over you, or start your own company. I don't give a shit what a company says about their culture of work/life balance or whatever. If I see blanket IP clauses unrelated to non-compete, or like arbitration clauses that remove us from civil c…

I basically did whistle my way out the door because of this. I worked as a contractor for a very large defense company. After a year, they offered me full time employment. I specifically asked if there was a "we own everything you make" clause in the employment agreement, but I was assured there was not. I went through about five digital form contracts, and when I got to the last one, it had the clause in there. I to…

you have all my respect! wish more people stood up for what they believed in.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#110

Post by sizzle »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #94
cynicalkane wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you had a written promise, could you sue?

No, you can only say no thanks and leave. I strongly suggest to anyone who gets hired at Google to read the employment contract completely (you can ask them to send it to you before you start). If you have a friend who understands contract law, have them explain it to you. Then decide. Unlike in credit situations there is no equivalent of the Fair Credit Act covering employment contracts. Many employers exploit that…

Thanks for the advice, did not know this.
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