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My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

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Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#41
post #30

Don't think, that in Germany the situation is that much better. We might not have those agreements in the contracts, since in Germany there are (luckily) many regulations what can be put into contracts. But the German law has also some specialties: For example, when you make an invention in your free time, even when it has nothing to do with your current job, you must first ask your employer, if he wants to buy the i…

What's stopping you from setting an outrageous price?

I don't think, that you are free to set your own price. But of course, I am not current in these special law topics. But in Germany, as in many other countries: If it goes to court, you will loose against a big company.

It was an other situation, but a lawyer once told me, what happens when such things go to court: The corporation will bring 10 witnesses against you and will bring 10 experts certifying what the corporation needs.

And than you will be very alone and be gracious to get even a little money. You will loose your job anyway.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#42
Maybe don't sign these types of contracts?

We are fortunate enough that even the most mediocre among us can hold out for the next employer that doesn't demand this kind of control over you, or start your own company. I don't give a shit what a company says about their culture of work/life balance or whatever. If I see blanket IP clauses unrelated to non-compete, or like arbitration clauses that remove us from civil courts should a problem arise, I'm whistling on my way out the door.

I once saw a contract that stated I couldn't work in the field for TWO YEARS after terminating. Not just large machine equipment, but ANY mobile/web applications, related to integration with embedded systems or not. Yeah no thanks.

Your mind should be available for rent for $100k/year or whatever your market rate is these days but not for sale at that price. Sorry but I'm a Human as a Service. If you want to own me, you'll have to come to a better valuation.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#44
post #9

.......remind me again how the courts in Texas work? "In 2004 a court in Texas ordered a former Alcatel employee to give his former employer a software algorithm — which existed entirely in his mind. The idea, which he was still working on and was still too abstract and incomplete to be a patentable invention, was nevertheless deemed the property of Alcatel, forcing the ex-employee to turn over the algorithm in the m…

That's the infamous Evan Brown case, right? Ah, good ole DSC....

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#46
Oddly, I was thinking about this exact topic this weekend. When I joined my current company, I signed a document saying whatever I build belongs to the company.

I'd like to go back and have this reversed. What is the best course of action? Write a letter saying that what I create on my own time is my property, and have the CEO or HR Manager sign it?

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike it (and most forward-thinking companies wouldn't risk scaring off people who are the type that work on their own time), however I can see the reasons. How do they know you did it at home, not during work hours? How do they know it didn't affect your work? If you're salaried, there aren't set start/stop times. How do they know they weren't paying you at the time you came up with the idea, or thought through…

That's an awful lot of maybes. Maybe I was a good employee, met my deadlines, respected both company time and my own, and also enjoyed working on pet projects in my free time. It is absolutely absurd that a company feels entitled to my personal work because of "maybe."

Maybe I was a good employee, met my deadlines, respected both company time and my own, and also enjoyed working on pet projects in my free time. It is absolutely absurd that a company feels entitled to my personal work because of "maybe."

Organizations tend toward pessimism because people respond more strongly to shame, insult, and embarrassment (of themselves and others) than to victory, pride, altruism, and shared glory. They turn toward a certain paranoia. That's why there's so much HR literature on how to conduct "low performer" witch hunts (get those time thieves!) while companies don't do the least thing to support high performers (except offer them more money when they seem likely to leave).

Ultimately, most things controlled by humans devolve into feudalistic, dysfunctional reputation economies in which the trade of social credibility becomes the only thing that matters, and the organization's original purpose is either forgotten, ignored, or half-assed. There are counterexamples and exceptions and processes that prevent this, but they're uncommon. Most companies have much fear of the humiliation of "that guy" stealing time to launch his own career, and only a slight background hum (if even that, as sometimes it's dead silence) of fear for the real existential threats: crumbling morale, widespread distrust, and the death of innovation.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#48
My startup is compensating the engineers with restricted shares in the corporation. When we go for funding, we will want the highest valuation we can convince the investors of. One important valuation attribute is the corporation's legal ownership of the intellectual property produced by the engineers who build the system. That intellectual property is not just patents, but the source code, web site design, system architecture, operating processes and many other points. Basically, the intellectual property is what ever the engineers create in the process of building the startup.

The restricted shares are granted under contractor agreements. Performing to those agreements qualifies the restrictions on the shares to be lifted, in effect vesting the the shares.

In order for the corporation to demonstrate that it has legal ownership of everything the engineers have created, the contractor agreement they sign is very explicit and verbose [1] about their informed decision to turn over ownership of that IP to the company, and that the ownership they are being given in the company is compensation for the intellectual property they produce. The language specifically carves out -relevance- to the startup: "... that are related to the business (present or future) of the Company or its affiliates...".

None of them have any qualm about this, and fully understand the purpose and value of turning over their creative fruits to the company.

I'd expect that this principle has to persist regardless of the size of the company. The key to making it work is that the employee/inventor willfully signs up to the legal restrictions the company places on them as payment for their work and compensation for their creativity. I can easily imagine that corporate attorneys who work to protect their employer's interests would push the lines of what constitutes the scope of the company's claim over their work. I'd guess that for every term that seems intrusive or abusive, there is a precedent case somewhere that corporations can point to as justification for it.

In the case of my startup, the language is specific that the invention is made in the course of building the company, not from other unrelated activities.

[1] INVENTIONS. (a) Disclosure. I will promptly disclose In writing to the Company all discoveries, developments, designs, ideas, improvements, inventions, formulas, processes, techniques, know-how, and data (whether or not patentable or registerable under copyright or similar statutes) made, conceived, reduced to practice, or learned by me (either alone or jointly with others) during the term of the Independent Contractor Agreement between the Company and me and within 12 months thereafter (unless any such disclosure Is prohibited by the terms of a commercially reasonable non-disclosure agreement signed by me that Is meant to protect the trade secrets and confidentiality of an employer subsequently employing me), that are related to the business (present or future) of the Company or its affiliates, or which result from tasks assigned to me by the Company, or from the use of facilities or equipment owned, leased, or otherwise used by the Company or Its affiliates (all of the foregoing are referred to in this Agreement as "Inventions"). (b) Assignment of Inventions. I acknowledge and agree that all Inventions belong to and shall be the sole property of the Company, subject to the provisions of this Agreement. I hereby assign to the Company all rights, title, and interest I may have or may acquire in and to all inventions. Both during and after the term of the Independent Contractor Agreement between the Company and me, and from time to time, I agree, promptly upon the request of the Company, to sign and deliver to the Company such other documents as the Company considers desirable to evidence the assignment to the Company of all rights I may have, if any, in any Inventions and the Company's ownership of such Inventions.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#49

I've always been particularly confused by the contract clauses which specify that all work of the employee during their time at the company is property of the company itself. Does this mean that if I develop some completely unrelated software in my spare time while working as a programmer at a large company, that the software I created at home also belongs to my employer? What if I was to write a book during that sam…

If you worked at the big corporation where I worked, and they became aware of your side work, they would have asked you to either give it to them if it was of significant interest or leave the company. A former coworker of mine found himself in this situation and left the company.

I found myself in this situation too, but after an investigation the company was not significantly interested in my work enough to pursue it further.

Edit: I should add that plenty of groups within our company, while officially bound to the same agreement, were unofficially free to do similar work without consequence. Our group suffered from a leader who wanted to do things "by the book".

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#50
These contracts are bunk, they are too one sided. They want to claim the upside of my ideas and work but, if I write some software for a side project which I make additional income on (which they'd want to claim ownership of) and it fails and causes harm, are they going to take on the liability of getting sued for it? Didn't think so.

Edit: I understand the law doesn't think they are bunk. This is my person opinion about them and why they should be bunk.

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