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Suicide Prevention Sheds a Longstanding Taboo: Talking About Attempts

nytimes.com

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Re: Suicide Prevention Sheds a Longstanding Taboo: Talking About Attempts

#21

Post by dfc »

mbillie1 wrote: post #14
evanlivingston wrote: post #3

The longstanding taboo I think is actually allowing people to commit suicide. This question rarely enters the debate.

Can you elaborate on this? I think it would be virtually impossible to prevent suicide, not to mention various things perhaps not treated as suicide but which are self-caused deaths (repeatedly engaging in very-very-high-risk activity, for example).

There are lots of cultural and legal forces that deter suicide. (hopefully you were not being pedantic with prevent/deter)

  * Cultural shame of surviving family.
  * Suicide is a sin in some religions.
  * Suicide voids most life insurance policies.

Re: Suicide Prevention Sheds a Longstanding Taboo: Talking About Attempts

#22

Post by meric »

evanlivingston wrote: post #17
mbillie1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on this? I think it would be virtually impossible to prevent suicide, not to mention various things perhaps not treated as suicide but which are self-caused deaths (repeatedly engaging in very-very-high-risk activity, for example).

I mean that suicide is perceived as something to prevent, but I don't often see the conversation about _why_ we are preventing it. Clinical depression is a beast, and many people who pursue treatment seriously continue to struggle with it their whole lives. I think great minds like David Foster Wallace prove how persistent depression is. Suicide is a real escape from the incredible pain that depression can cause, yet…

One cause of suicide is emotional pain, and at times it is inflicted (accidentally or intentionally) by others in society. Not preventing suicide would mean we give up solving the actual problem of inflicted emotional pain. At the same time, IMHO, the focus is on suicide prevention rather than catering the emotional needs of individuals because there's a tendency for society in aggregate to only solve problems at the last minute. i.e. Society doesn't care about your health until you reach the emergency room. It doesn't care about your emotional pain until you attempt suicide. It doesn't care about your career until you become unemployed.

Re: Suicide Prevention Sheds a Longstanding Taboo: Talking About Attempts

#23

Post by mbillie1 »

altero wrote: post #16
mbillie1 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post consists of 1) an undocumented / unproven assertion, 2) a laughable generalization, and 3) an offensive generalization.

What part do you actually disagree with? If you have two persons with the same body mass, both of them drink 1 liter of whiskey. I bet in one case it will be 'really bad hangover' and in second case it will be 'suicide attempt'.

I disagree with absurd stereotypes such as "men in general are treated like shit" and "most women are emotionally blackmailing their families".

Re: Suicide Prevention Sheds a Longstanding Taboo: Talking About Attempts

#24

Post by dfc »

evanlivingston wrote: post #17
mbillie1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on this? I think it would be virtually impossible to prevent suicide, not to mention various things perhaps not treated as suicide but which are self-caused deaths (repeatedly engaging in very-very-high-risk activity, for example).

I mean that suicide is perceived as something to prevent, but I don't often see the conversation about _why_ we are preventing it. Clinical depression is a beast, and many people who pursue treatment seriously continue to struggle with it their whole lives. I think great minds like David Foster Wallace prove how persistent depression is. Suicide is a real escape from the incredible pain that depression can cause, yet…

Why did it take "a great mind like DFW" to accept how persistent depression is? I doubt you meant it but I found the dfw bit to be offensive. You seem to deny the serious pain and suffering my friend experienced simply because he was not a celebrity and/or had an average IQ? The reason I say it is offensive (and that you did not intend it to be) is that it seems as if pre-DFW you assumed my friend was just not smart enough to out think depression, or that given his mediocore mind/life, depression would not need to be that powerful and persistent in order for him to realize the loss of his life was no big deal.

In my opinion the better question to ask would be "Why is it not okay for depressives to kill themselves?" The taboo is related to a very specific suicide. When an individual has brain cancer it is euthanasia, when the individual has depression it is suicide.

Re: Suicide Prevention Sheds a Longstanding Taboo: Talking About Attempts

#25

Post by thinkharder »

evanlivingston wrote: post #17
mbillie1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on this? I think it would be virtually impossible to prevent suicide, not to mention various things perhaps not treated as suicide but which are self-caused deaths (repeatedly engaging in very-very-high-risk activity, for example).

I mean that suicide is perceived as something to prevent, but I don't often see the conversation about _why_ we are preventing it. Clinical depression is a beast, and many people who pursue treatment seriously continue to struggle with it their whole lives. I think great minds like David Foster Wallace prove how persistent depression is. Suicide is a real escape from the incredible pain that depression can cause, yet…

With the exception of people who commit suicide in terminal end-of-life situations (terminal cancer, or similar), folks who are attempt or commit suicide because of depression, aren't thinking straight. The depressed brain senses, feels and interprets things differently than the same brain not depressed. So the idea is that the person isn't well, and their decision making process isn't working right. The decision to commit suicide is the result of hopelessness brought on by the brain misinterpreting the person's situation and perceiving that the only way to escape the situation is death. The person doesn't want to die, per se. They just want the pain to end. With that in mind, to allow a depressed person to commit suicide is basically failing to treat a person's health problem, and them dying as a result of it.

I'm a proponent of allowing people to make that choice when they have the wherewithal do so. Someone who is dying of a painful terminal illness, etc, end of life is no one's choice but yours. But the suicidally depressed person can't make that decision rationally. It's like making any decision under the weight of extremely strong emotion, only it's an order of magnitude more powerful than what most people will experience in their lives. The suicidal person is ill, and needs help. It's the fact that they can't find help that brings them to suicide.

Re: Suicide Prevention Sheds a Longstanding Taboo: Talking About Attempts

#26

Post by evanlivingston »

dfc wrote: post #24
evanlivingston wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean that suicide is perceived as something to prevent, but I don't often see the conversation about _why_ we are preventing it. Clinical depression is a beast, and many people who pursue treatment seriously continue to struggle with it their whole lives. I think great minds like David Foster Wallace prove how persistent depression is. Suicide is a real escape from the incredible pain that depression can cause, yet…

Why did it take "a great mind like DFW" to accept how persistent depression is? I doubt you meant it but I found the dfw bit to be offensive. You seem to deny the serious pain and suffering my friend experienced simply because he was not a celebrity and/or had an average IQ? The reason I say it is offensive (and that you did not intend it to be) is that it seems as if pre-DFW you assumed my friend was just not smart…

Sorry to cause offense, I understand what you're saying. The news of DFW death was popular here on HN, and I was using him as an appeal to authority.

I wanted to bring up the difference between suicide and euthanasia, I think it's critical to understanding the issue culturally.

Re: Suicide Prevention Sheds a Longstanding Taboo: Talking About Attempts

#27

Post by chaired »

mbillie1 wrote: post #12
altero wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not suicide attempt if you are not planning to die. For example drug overdose is not necessary suicide attempt. Men in general are treated like a shit, so they kill themselfs. Most women are emotionally blackmailing their families.

This post consists of 1) an undocumented / unproven assertion, 2) a laughable generalization, and 3) an offensive generalization.

I'm not saying what he said was valid, but I am saying that neither being offensive nor being a generalization needs to have a bearing on truth value.

Another: All else being equal, women get a lot of attention and praise, while men generally have to compete harder for such things.

Re: Suicide Prevention Sheds a Longstanding Taboo: Talking About Attempts

#28

Post by dfc »

evanlivingston wrote: post #26
dfc wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did it take "a great mind like DFW" to accept how persistent depression is? I doubt you meant it but I found the dfw bit to be offensive. You seem to deny the serious pain and suffering my friend experienced simply because he was not a celebrity and/or had an average IQ? The reason I say it is offensive (and that you did not intend it to be) is that it seems as if pre-DFW you assumed my friend was just not smart…

Sorry to cause offense, I understand what you're saying. The news of DFW death was popular here on HN, and I was using him as an appeal to authority. I wanted to bring up the difference between suicide and euthanasia, I think it's critical to understanding the issue culturally.

I should have said "it could be offensive if I thought you recognized/intended." I have no reason to think you are a bad person, so no harm no foul. The fact that you are thinking about this and asking questions is evidence of a certain level of compassion and intelligence.

DFW wrote a lot of Infinite Jest three blocks south of me and across the street from the coop where I buy groceries. It is still kind of eerie walking by the house with a bag of groceries.

Re: Suicide Prevention Sheds a Longstanding Taboo: Talking About Attempts

#29

Post by [deleted] »

sien wrote: post #19
id wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not your fault, like it's not your fault when children die of cancer. That doesn't mean we should find ways to prevent it. Most poeple who attempt or commit suicide don't want to die, but rather prefer death over life because they want to put an end to their suffering. That said, I don't think talking about attempts will help someone who is suicidal in the slightest. If anything it leads to emulation suicides, a…

Copycat suicide is contested. This has more detail: http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2006/10/werther_effect_copyca... This podcast discusses the issue: http://freakonomics.com/2011/08/31/new-freakonomics-radio-po...

[deleted]

Re: Suicide Prevention Sheds a Longstanding Taboo: Talking About Attempts

#30

Post by chaired »

graeme wrote: post #6

Serious question: is someone who attempts suicide in the same group as someone who successfully commits suicide? For instance, far more men commit suicide. But far more women attempt suicide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide I'm sure there are other differences. To me, the questions are: 1. Why do people fail at suicide attempts? 2. Will information that dissuades a failed suicide attempt di…

1. I'm surprised how often the simple matter of difficulty is skirted. I've been wholeheartedly and single-mindedly motivated to off myself in the past, and it is hard to do. I don't know how to get a gun, and if I had one, I wouldn't know what to do with it. Jumping from height requires enormous courage to override the instinctive refusal to do it. Hanging requires tremendous endurance of pain: hanging your whole body by your neck hurts!!!, and you do not go out right away. As far as the pills that would actually work, I would not know where to get them.

You could say if I was truly motivated, I would learn how to overcome one or more of these obstacles. Well that's a moving goalpost. I maintain that I was motivated to try whatever I had at my disposal, and I was not able to determine whether it was actually possible.

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