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The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

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Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#141

Post by r0s »

downandout wrote: post #131

I have no issues with gay marriage, and I don't think that individual religious views have any place in the creation of laws that will affect people's everyday lives. However, this idea that someone can't keep their personal political views outside of their workplace is the territory of small-minded idiots. A good CEO can, indeed, support causes in his personal life that don't wind up becoming policy at the company h…

A good CEO is the most public figure of the company, under constant media scrutiny.

If you think that's unfair or that the public shouldn't care about public figures, that high horse will only take you as far as hand waving theory.

OKCupid made a business decision. It could have been as superficial as Eich's hair color but there it is. This pathetic whining about "fairness" to the leadership of such a consumer oriented company is naive and disingenuous.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#142

Post by anaphor »

Malus wrote: post #114
anonbanker wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive the nitpick, but I'm not sure Lars makes great Music. Cliff wrote all the early material. All the stuff now is written by Kirk/James, and then the producer has the final say. I'm not sure I can think of a song he's written that I enjoy. Can you? However, you may be right that Lars is the biggest asshole in music. how many people (other than Prince) sue their fans? how many people flaunt their massive art coll…

Lars may be an asshole, but it is unfair to say that he made less of a contribution to the writing that Cliff did. Lars has writing credits on 8 tracks of Kill'Em All [0], 8 tracks of Ride the Lightning [1], 8 tracks of Master of Puppets [2], and 9 tracks of ...And Justice for All [3], whereas Cliff only has 1, 6, 3, and 1 tracks on said albums respectively. Furthermore, James wrote nearly all of the lyrics himself,…

On the other hand, wasn't Lars the driving force between the terrible mastering of their more recent albums? I remember reading something where he said basically that because he didn't personally hear any clipping and it sounded good in his car that it was good.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#143

Post by bluntly_said »

Karunamon wrote: post #115
bluntly_said wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me stoop to your level for a moment: Yo, FUCKHEAD: You claimed appropriating marriage was a band-aid. BUT... you ALREADY HAD THE FUCKING RIGHTS. You JUST WANT TO ARGUE ABOUT WHAT MARRIAGE IS. FUCK YOU. You don't give a SHIT about the rights, because you don't even know that you already have them. You JUST WANT TO FORCE RELIGION to let you call it marriage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_Cali…

I at no point in this entire discussion insulted you. And this is in case you delete/edit your comment: http://gyazo.com/780f9733394829fce3b5577edf4091b5 Like I said. We're done here.

I'm not going to delete it, it's there for a reason.

Maybe you're just so busy arguing with everyone else that you can't remember who said what, or what we were even talking about. But you've intentionally walked in circles, and had problems making a consistent argument.

You claim you wanted rights without even knowing that you had them, or acknowledging that my proposed solution also does away with the separate but equal bullshit.

And yes, you insult me every time you make derisive comments like "Yeah, fuck me for wanting equality like blacks and women." That's just a plain lie. There's no lack of equality, and I'm even agreeing with you about the separate but equal statements. You still demand that you're right though, and insist that I must be a bigot.

That's demeaning to me, and it short circuits a real discussion, like you've been trying to do all along. You're JUST as bad as the supporters of prop 8, and that's what I'm trying to call out.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#144

Post by r0s »

lingben wrote: post #5

The hypocrisy of okcupid was evident even before this little bit of info (Yagan's past political contribution) was shared. As I and others pointed out, okcupid went on using javascript! As for okcupid occupying the moral high ground, I still remember when, right after their purchase by match.com, they removed one of the most interesting posts on their blog. It was about why you should never pay for dating web sites a…

Being a hypocrite about paywalls after the company is re-structured is related to this somehow?

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#145

Post by ufmace »

bluntly_said wrote: post #8

I find the entire Eich scandal disheartening. A man lost his job (one he was undoubtedly qualified for) because people find it easier to heap hatred on someone they've never met, than to act with dignity and respect. We have some serious issues in this country, and our inability to compromise or respect a person we don't agree with is frightening. Life is filled with shades of grey, compromise is not "that nice thing…

From everything I've read, he voluntarily stepped down, without any pressure exerted on him by anyone above him or who otherwise has direct power over him. Has anybody seen any indication otherwise?

In this case, I'm more inclined to see it as a good move overall. He isn't a backroom coder or language designer or something, whose opinions and PR profile don't really matter. As CEO, his whole job is to lead, set the direction of the company, and be its public face. This issue, and his handling of it, seem to show that he isn't really cut out for the job and shouldn't be doing it. It was probably a mistake to take it in the first place, but I don't think he could have a good career just moving to a lower position at the company now.

I will say that I respect him more for stepping down on his own, and for not pulling some bullshit PR move like apologizing or making a token donation to some pro-LGBT cause. That always seemed so slimy to me - like saying "I probably still believe what I always believed, but I will kowtow to the PC gods and make a PR move to save my job without ever actually standing up for what I believe."

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#146

Post by rdtsc »

masklinn wrote: post #75
pyduan wrote: post #47

What is regrettable in all this is that no one seems to consider the possibility that people may have nuanced views about gay marriage. According to the mob you're either a saint or a bigot, and thus Eich's value as a human being was supposedly entirely determined by this one opinion he voiced in 2008. I'm staunchly in favor of gay marriage, which I consider to be a no-brainer -- but it seems to me the motivations of…

> For example, there are people who have nothing against homosexuality but are attached to the symbolic value of 'marriage' as a Christian institution Yes, they were also attached to its symbolic value when they used it to condemn miscegenation. Given atheist, muslims, jews or hindus can get married, and so can blacks, browns, reds, yellows and whites (with one another too, which once upon a time was against "the sym…

> I'm pretty sure civil marriage has nothing to do with "the symbolic value of 'marriage' as a Christian institution".

The difference is that you are more rational and clear thinking individual than many many others. Trying to apply your logic to their "logic" will just result in frustration.

The Cognitive Therapy approach to argument ("Well let me show you how your argument is internally inconsistent") doesn't often work in such case.

So what does that mean in this case. It means that they can have a deep belief that civil marriage is tied to the Christian idea and still accept that atheists and Hindus also take part in it. There is vague religious mythology associated with the Founding Fathers, Constitution and the idea of exclusivity of this country. We are shocked how some Islamic country go full on and just base their legal framework on Islamic rules, but there are swathes of Americans would love nothing more that see that happen here but with Christian ideology.

They have been also losing ground (abortion etc), saw a resurgence with election of Bush junior (a large Evangelical backing) and now they are losing ground again and are being backed into a corner. Instead of seeing the crazy irrationality of their action they lash out and create Prop 8 like campaigns. Tea parties and so on.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#147

Post by anonbanker »

seertaak wrote: post #125
anonbanker wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and yet, all these testimonials came out from LGBTQ*'s working at Mozilla, with Brenden Eich, saying that he treated them as equals. Perhaps you could elaborate on when Eich said they were second-class citizens. you know, so you aren't accused of putting words in someone's mouth.

As Karunamon states, no more evidence is needed than his financial support for a bigoted law, and his subsequent failure to rescind this support. It's kind of sad that this needs to be repeated so often, but Proposition 8 was an attempt to limit the rights of a minority of the population (a minority I happen to belong to, as a bisexual man). It is an unprovoked act of aggression -- bullying, if you want. If Eich had…

So, I can interpret your reply as "no. I could not find any examples of Brendan Eich saying that gays were second-class citizens." I appreciate your agreement in this.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#148

Post by egh »

baddox wrote: post #127
egh wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your understanding of civil rights and Jim Crow is so wrong it's just astounding. I suggest you start with reading the wikipedia article on Brown v. Board of Education and Jim Crow laws.

Can you give me something more specific? Are you referring to the fact that Brown vs. BoE applied specifically to public schools rather than private businesses? That's true, but the separate but equal doctrine allowed states to prohibit private businesses from having integrated facilities regardless of whether the business owners were racist.

Yes, among other things. Just read the article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

Are you implying there were a bunch of southern business owners who wanted to provide integrated service, but were unable to because of Jim Crow? That's what it sounds like, and it's so wrong it's astounding.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#149

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

bluntly_said wrote: post #46
Karunamon wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not qualified to tell the other side of the story. What a cop out. You're, like everyone else who disagrees with this, downplaying Eich's behavior and trying to turn activists into the "real" monsters for speaking out. Why the double standard? Why does one man, Eich, get a pass on speaking out for his personal political beliefs (with cash), but you demonize the the (hundreds? thousands? more?) people who did noth…

You understand you're the definition of a schoolyard bully, right? I've read all my posts, several times. I'm internally consistent, and I almost always favor cautious respect over ignorant bashing. I'm not even defending Eich, again, I don't know him. I'm stating that a social environment where a man loses a job Mozilla thought he was qualified for because of private personal beliefs and internet outrage is not only…

> loses a job Mozilla thought he was qualified for because of private personal beliefs

Ah yes, this again. The old, "yes, his personal values seriously conflict with the employer's values[1] but hey, he can still check his opinions at the door when he comes in to work and do a good job!" gambit. My opinion is that this is transparently balderdash. The CEO represents the brand. The CEO's values matter. The CEO's values will out. People don't have firewalls in their heads between personal and professional like that.

1: Mozilla is not just a company. It is "a non-profit organization that promotes openness, innovation and participation" https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla#Values

> schoolyard bully .. internet outrage.

I would like to state that me and others expressing our opinions here in normal language does not constitute bullying, a "lynch mob" and does not compel Mozilla or any other company to do anything. Characterising it as other than free speech is incorrect.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#150

Post by jerryr »

baddox wrote: post #116
jerryr wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gay, and I would classify my feelings towards Eich more as fear than hatred. Eich very directly donated towards a cause that was bent on restricting my rights. Though fear often breeds hatred, I truly don't bear Eich ill will. I'm not happy to see him lose his job--on the contrary, I share your sadness that a talented, qualified man lost his job. However, I am relieved that a man who feels that I should not be al…

I'm seeing a lot of disagreement over the facts of Proposition 8. Several people are saying that homosexual couples in California already had a legal partnership with all the same rights as "married" heterosexual couples.

Okay, let's take the facts in question off the table and say that there are absolutely no differences between marriage and domestic partnerships besides the name. At best then, Prop 8 kept us "separate but equal". History has shown that doctrine to be discriminatory and oppressive. There's an inherent inequality in my inability to say that I'm married.
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