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The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

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Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are two sides to this story, and you seem to be very eager to tell the one and handwave the other for a "why can't we all just get along" platitude. We should treat people with respect. Not create a sensationalist backlash. Not punish people for having their opinions & being politically active on a gray area. Most of all, a rational discourse should take place. Not these sensationalist headlines that are desi…

I'd say a fundamental portion of respect is not encoding your personal beliefs of other people's personal lives into law . If you want to make the purely numeric argument, Eich's behavior impacted a hell of a lot more people than the backlash did.

> I'd say a fundamental portion of respect is not encoding your personal beliefs of other people's personal lives into law.

I keep seeing this line from gay marriage supporters. I always have to ask, what exactly is the pro-gay-marriage movement about then? It sounds to me like it's exactly what you're describing here.

Disclaimer: I support same-sex marriage.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say a fundamental portion of respect is not encoding your personal beliefs of other people's personal lives into law . If you want to make the purely numeric argument, Eich's behavior impacted a hell of a lot more people than the backlash did.

> Eich's behavior impacted a hell of a lot more people than the backlash did The backlash affects everybody. It creates a hostile environment where your opinion can cost you your job. That coupled with ever growing levels of transparency means everybody needs to have a politically correct opinion or face consequences. The ends do not justify the means. Also, what does firing Eich achieve for the gay rights movement?…

>It creates a hostile environment where your opinion can cost you your job.

It would probably already cost you your job to publicly declare (let alone financially support) similar non-equality views of both blacks and women. Why is this so much worse?

Oh no, one more particular flavor of bigotry becomes socially unacceptable. However will I cope.

>Also, what does firing Eich achieve for the gay rights movement?

An object lession that being bigoted against LGBTs is just as unacceptable and repugnant as being bigoted against blacks or women. Regardless of your position in life. A double standard that I, for one, am glad we are reversing.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not qualified to tell the other side of the story. I don't know why Eich made that contribution. Neither do you. It might have been family pressure, it might have honestly been that he's religious and doesn't believe the word "marriage" can be applied to same sex couple (who had Domestic partnerships available in California, which provide the same legal rights as marriage, so I find the "second class citizen" arg…

I'm not qualified to tell the other side of the story. What a cop out. You're, like everyone else who disagrees with this, downplaying Eich's behavior and trying to turn activists into the "real" monsters for speaking out. Why the double standard? Why does one man, Eich, get a pass on speaking out for his personal political beliefs (with cash), but you demonize the the (hundreds? thousands? more?) people who did noth…

> trying to turn activists into the "real" monsters for speaking out

If the activists act like monsters, then that needs to be called out as well. Power corrupts. Do you think the activists are immune?

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#44
post #6

Things are about to get really interesting for OkCupid. Reap what you sow.

Unfortunately, I doubt it that this makes much of a ripple. "OKCupid blocks firefox to send message to Mozilla" is short and easily tweetable. This follow up requires more explanation.

you can't make a 10-second soundbyte out of it? I sure can. Picture Scumbag Steve, if you will.

ENCOURAGES PEOPLE TO BOYCOT MOZILLA FOR ANTI-GAY CEO.

DONATES TO ANTI-GAY CAUSES.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#45
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say a fundamental portion of respect is not encoding your personal beliefs of other people's personal lives into law . If you want to make the purely numeric argument, Eich's behavior impacted a hell of a lot more people than the backlash did.

> I'd say a fundamental portion of respect is not encoding your personal beliefs of other people's personal lives into law. I keep seeing this line from gay marriage supporters. I always have to ask, what exactly is the pro-gay-marriage movement about then? It sounds to me like it's exactly what you're describing here. Disclaimer: I support same-sex marriage.

There's a fundamental difference between recognizing that what people do with their lives is their business, and attempting to force them to stop through legislative fiat.

Nobody's forcing you to do or not do anything by allowing marriage equality. The same cannot be said of its opponents.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not qualified to tell the other side of the story. I don't know why Eich made that contribution. Neither do you. It might have been family pressure, it might have honestly been that he's religious and doesn't believe the word "marriage" can be applied to same sex couple (who had Domestic partnerships available in California, which provide the same legal rights as marriage, so I find the "second class citizen" arg…

I'm not qualified to tell the other side of the story. What a cop out. You're, like everyone else who disagrees with this, downplaying Eich's behavior and trying to turn activists into the "real" monsters for speaking out. Why the double standard? Why does one man, Eich, get a pass on speaking out for his personal political beliefs (with cash), but you demonize the the (hundreds? thousands? more?) people who did noth…

You understand you're the definition of a schoolyard bully, right?

I've read all my posts, several times. I'm internally consistent, and I almost always favor cautious respect over ignorant bashing.

I'm not even defending Eich, again, I don't know him. I'm stating that a social environment where a man loses a job Mozilla thought he was qualified for because of private personal beliefs and internet outrage is not only actively undemocratic, it's foolish and childish.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#47
What is regrettable in all this is that no one seems to consider the possibility that people may have nuanced views about gay marriage. According to the mob you're either a saint or a bigot, and thus Eich's value as a human being was supposedly entirely determined by this one opinion he voiced in 2008.

I'm staunchly in favor of gay marriage, which I consider to be a no-brainer -- but it seems to me the motivations of Prop 8 proponents differ a lot in nature, with some being much more excusable than others in their wrongness.

For example, there are people who have nothing against homosexuality but are attached to the symbolic value of 'marriage' as a Christian institution and would be completely fine with another civil contract with the same rights but a different name. This seems to be somewhat in line with Eich's actions (I remember reading a memo from Eich stating he had no plan to amend Mozilla's gay-friendly policies and employee benefits). Although I still think this view is guilty of being wrongly attached to outdated models of society, this is not nearly as bad as what Eich has been accused of.

There are other possible reasons one could have (for example, those who in ignorance of the many studies that showed that children of homosexual households grow up just fine could have unfounded reservations about gay adoption, but would be ready to change their mind if shown the evidence; I've encountered a couple myself), but my broader point is that there is a huge range in the degree of bigotry between those who voted Prop 8 and one should not jump to conclusions so easily as they do not all deserve the same level of condemnation.

Now, I can understand why Eich's views could make him unsuitable as a CEO because, in a purely pragmatic sense, holding views that most of your workforce despise is obviously detrimental to your ability to lead and especially so at such a peculiar organization as Mozilla where ideology matters arguably more than in other companies; it also matters because, as many have said, a CEO is the face of the company and his views and those of the company are sometimes hard to disentangle.

But going from there to making a call to boycott Firefox is a huge jump and smells like a pure appropriation of the controversy for PR purposes. This revelation about Sam Yagan seems to strengthen this feeling. Come on people, we're better than this. Being on the right side of history about an issue does not automatically waive us from intellectual rigor and moderation.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>because people find it easier to heap hatred on someone they've never met, than to act with dignity and respect. Turn it around. Eich found it easier to treat millions of people he's never met as second class citizens, than to act with dignity and respect. There are two sides to this story, and you seem to be very eager to tell the one and handwave the other for a "why can't we all just get along" platitude.

I'm not qualified to tell the other side of the story. I don't know why Eich made that contribution. Neither do you. It might have been family pressure, it might have honestly been that he's religious and doesn't believe the word "marriage" can be applied to same sex couple (who had Domestic partnerships available in California, which provide the same legal rights as marriage, so I find the "second class citizen" arg…

We have public information. The public information is damning: he donated to an organization that ran a campaign of hateful slurs against gay people in order to permanently deny them their human rights in the California Constitution.

I guess there might be some private exonerating information, but I have a hard time imagining what it might be.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#49

I find the entire Eich scandal disheartening. A man lost his job (one he was undoubtedly qualified for) because people find it easier to heap hatred on someone they've never met, than to act with dignity and respect. We have some serious issues in this country, and our inability to compromise or respect a person we don't agree with is frightening. Life is filled with shades of grey, compromise is not "that nice thing…

>because people find it easier to heap hatred on someone they've never met, than to act with dignity and respect. Turn it around. Eich found it easier to treat millions of people he's never met as second class citizens, than to act with dignity and respect. There are two sides to this story, and you seem to be very eager to tell the one and handwave the other for a "why can't we all just get along" platitude.

and yet, all these testimonials came out from LGBTQ*'s working at Mozilla, with Brenden Eich, saying that he treated them as equals.

Perhaps you could elaborate on when Eich said they were second-class citizens. you know, so you aren't accused of putting words in someone's mouth.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say a fundamental portion of respect is not encoding your personal beliefs of other people's personal lives into law . If you want to make the purely numeric argument, Eich's behavior impacted a hell of a lot more people than the backlash did.

The other side of this coin is that marriage has religious significance to many people, and by forcing the definition to change, pro-gay rights groups are also codifying personal belief into law. Both sides fucked it up. The only proper response should have been to remove all legal rights associated with marriage, and force all couples to get a civil union. Tax that instead. Churches are welcome to marry people all t…

>religious significance to many people, and by forcing the definition to change, pro-gay rights groups are also codifying personal belief into law.

The establishment clause to the constitution says that religious beliefs do not get to be encoded in law. And considering I have not seen one single anti-equality argument that wasn't either religiously motivated or a gigantic mass of "appeal to tradition" fallacies, I suggest the "anti" side move to a different country where theocracy is an accepted form or government. Because this isn't one.

> The only proper response should have been to remove all legal rights associated with marriage, and force all couples to get a civil union. Tax that instead.

I'd be okay with this, but it's not a change that happens overnight. There are too many things.. insurance benefits, tax benefits, inheritances, visitation rights, etc. associated with the spousal relationship. Those will take some time to work through. In the mean time, this is a suitable band-aid.

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