The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid • Hacker News Board

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#71

Post by briantakita » Sun, Apr 06, 2014, 6:32 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #42

briantakita wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eich's behavior impacted a hell of a lot more people than the backlash did The backlash affects everybody. It creates a hostile environment where your opinion can cost you your job. That coupled with ever growing levels of transparency means everybody needs to have a politically correct opinion or face consequences. The ends do not justify the means. Also, what does firing Eich achieve for the gay rights movement?…

>It creates a hostile environment where your opinion can cost you your job. It would probably already cost you your job to publicly declare (let alone financially support) similar non-equality views of both blacks and women. Why is this so much worse? Oh no, one more particular flavor of bigotry becomes socially unacceptable. However will I cope. >Also, what does firing Eich achieve for the gay rights movement? An ob…

Eich said he supported equality. He supported taking care of domestic partners. If you have issue with his "support" then have a respectful dialog. If he is wrong, then that will become obvious. Instead, the movement acted like a bully & does not have the moral high ground anymore.

You are conflating the state not recognizing gay marriage with a human rights issue. Not everyone agrees. Besides, the notion of marriage enforces the status quo of monogamy. I think Polyamory should also be recognized with equal benefits. Or better yet, all people should receive the benefits of a married person.

While I agree that there are equality issues with banning gay marriage, I don't think it's a human rights issue. For example, I'm single. Is it a human rights issue that I don't receive the tax benefits of being married? It's unfair, but I wouldn't say my human rights are being violated.

Support for Prop 8 doesn't necessarily mean that person is a bigot. This labeling is irrational & meant to stir up hatred. There are different reasons to support Prop 8. It's a cultural battle. However, ostracizing is a type of bullying. That behavior is wrong & needs to be called out.

I hope we can be respectful toward each other. It was not that long ago where gay rights activists were in the minority and treated with disrespect. We have an opportunity to have a more tolerant society. Let's not miss this opportunity.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#72

Post by Karunamon » Sun, Apr 06, 2014, 6:32 PM UTC

anonbanker wrote: post #59

Karunamon wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the "boycott" always struck me as misguided. Being annoyed at one particular person in a company doesn't preclude you using their stuff, moreso if that use doesn't imply any kind of support. Lars Ulrich might be the biggest asshole in music, but that doesn't mean he doesn't make great music.

Forgive the nitpick, but I'm not sure Lars makes great Music. Cliff wrote all the early material. All the stuff now is written by Kirk/James, and then the producer has the final say. I'm not sure I can think of a song he's written that I enjoy. Can you? However, you may be right that Lars is the biggest asshole in music. how many people (other than Prince) sue their fans? how many people flaunt their massive art coll…

Heh, fair enough, that was just immediately the first thing I could think of about a horrid person that does something I like. I happen to be a fan of some of their tunes.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#73

Post by dubfan » Sun, Apr 06, 2014, 6:33 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #45

dubfan wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd say a fundamental portion of respect is not encoding your personal beliefs of other people's personal lives into law. I keep seeing this line from gay marriage supporters. I always have to ask, what exactly is the pro-gay-marriage movement about then? It sounds to me like it's exactly what you're describing here. Disclaimer: I support same-sex marriage.

There's a fundamental difference between recognizing that what people do with their lives is their business, and attempting to force them to stop through legislative fiat. Nobody's forcing you to do or not do anything by allowing marriage equality. The same cannot be said of its opponents.

See, the anti-gay-marriage crowd doesn't see it that way. Marriage has historically been a religious ceremony, and by legalizing gay marriage we're codifying what opponents view as an assault on their deeply-held religious beliefs. You might say they are wrong, and you're entitled to say that in our free society. Where my problem comes in is when we try to stamp out any opposing view with the trump card of "bigotry". It's a very strong label that kills any meaningful dialogue.

There seems to be this sect of the American left that prescribes that everyone follow the left-wing cultural viewpoint, while claiming to be inclusive and diverse. The cognitive dissonance is palpable.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#74

Post by russellsprouts » Sun, Apr 06, 2014, 6:33 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #17

This is about as non as non-stories get. For one, there's about 27 universes worth of difference from supporting a specific law which does a specific thing, and supporting a politician who has different positions on different laws. Maybe the other positions he has took priority over marriage equality? For instance: five years ago, coming out of the economic mess, I'd have prioritized economic recovery (so, someone wh…

But if you are checking if a person if qualified to be CEO, wouldn't their domain knowledge and ability to lead be better qualities to prioritize than their stance on gay marriage -- especially if their personal views have not been shown to affect how they intend to lead?

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#75

Post by masklinn » Sun, Apr 06, 2014, 6:34 PM UTC

pyduan wrote: post #47

What is regrettable in all this is that no one seems to consider the possibility that people may have nuanced views about gay marriage. According to the mob you're either a saint or a bigot, and thus Eich's value as a human being was supposedly entirely determined by this one opinion he voiced in 2008. I'm staunchly in favor of gay marriage, which I consider to be a no-brainer -- but it seems to me the motivations of…

> For example, there are people who have nothing against homosexuality but are attached to the symbolic value of 'marriage' as a Christian institution

Yes, they were also attached to its symbolic value when they used it to condemn miscegenation.

Given atheist, muslims, jews or hindus can get married, and so can blacks, browns, reds, yellows and whites (with one another too, which once upon a time was against "the symbolic value of 'marriage' as a Christian institution"), I'm pretty sure civil marriage has nothing to do with "the symbolic value of 'marriage' as a Christian institution".

> and would be completely fine with another civil contract with the same rights but a different name.

Because "separate but equal" had such a good run last time around eh?

> This seems to be somewhat in line with Eich's actions

No it is not:

1. Eich donated $1000 to prop 8. Prop 8's goal was to prevent future homosexual marriages in california and to break up existing ones (since prop 8 was passed specifically because proposition 22 had been struck down and homosexual couples were getting married). It did not propose the introduction of an equivalent contract or amend californian law to effectively introduce one

2. Eich refused to acknowledge such an intent and stonewalled instead behind "me giving to people trying to destroy your marriage does not mean I'm a bigot". Does not sound like "separate but equal" was his intent, as distateful as that would have been

3. "I would prefer an alternative to it therefore I donate to amend the constitution in order to ban it" is not what I would call sane and sensible reasoning

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#76

Post by bluntly_said » Sun, Apr 06, 2014, 6:34 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #62

bluntly_said wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You understand you're the definition of a schoolyard bully, right? I've read all my posts, several times. I'm internally consistent, and I almost always favor cautious respect over ignorant bashing. I'm not even defending Eich, again, I don't know him. I'm stating that a social environment where a man loses a job Mozilla thought he was qualified for because of private personal beliefs and internet outrage is not only…

> I'm stating that a social environment where a man loses a job Mozilla thought he was qualified for because of private personal beliefs Private "personal beliefs" that he reached into his wallet and tried to force into law. This is the one thing that people don't seem to understand. Eich didn't just think gays were second class citizens. This isn't a "thoughtcrime" he's being pilloried for. It was the action. The do…

No, I think you've decided that when democracy doesn't cater exactly to your personal morals, it must be wrong.

Making a donation based on private, personal beliefs is ENTIRELY the point of a democracy. The correct action is to speak out in support of your ideas, not to cast hatred on those who disagree.

Instead of sitting here arguing, you could have gone and made a 10 dollar donation to a pro-lbgt group, and done a lot more good. Instead of forcing Eich to resign, you could have used it as a rallying point to get A LOT of other like minded people to make that same 10 dollar donation. You could have chosen to voice your opinions with both words and monetary support, (like Eich did) instead of attacking the opposition. You aren't doing that.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#77

Post by Karunamon » Sun, Apr 06, 2014, 6:34 PM UTC

waterlesscloud wrote: post #53

Karunamon wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you'd stop willfully misinterpreting my posts, you'd know that was not what I was saying at all. The whole point there was that certain things are more important than other things at certain times . And I did say five years ago , which you conveniently omitted from your little summary here. I am not a single issue voter.

But you're single issue on Eich. Who wasn't actually making laws against same sex marriage , but instead made open source software that improved the world.

Eich isn't an elected official.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#78

Post by Karunamon » Sun, Apr 06, 2014, 6:35 PM UTC

bluntly_said wrote: post #54

Karunamon wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not qualified to tell the other side of the story. What a cop out. You're, like everyone else who disagrees with this, downplaying Eich's behavior and trying to turn activists into the "real" monsters for speaking out. Why the double standard? Why does one man, Eich, get a pass on speaking out for his personal political beliefs (with cash), but you demonize the the (hundreds? thousands? more?) people who did noth…

Let me put this another way. If your response to Eich getting promoted was to stop using Firefox, I'd support your actions. If your response was to publicly shame him for an opinion to the point where he loses his job, you're a fucking bully.

So in other words, if you as an activist do anything that has a real impact, you're a "fucking bully", but you "support my actions" if I take meaningless, "feel good" steps.

Get real.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#79

Post by waterlesscloud » Sun, Apr 06, 2014, 6:35 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #67

cheez wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why is it OK to donate to a politician who is anti-whatever, but a CEO can't be? Seems like a double standard to me.

Has the politician spent tens of millions of dollars in a campaign slurring gay people with some of the most hateful and darkest tropes about them, all the while trying to permanently remove their human rights by amending the Constitution?

Well, the politician literally voted for a law to amend the constitution to prevent gay marriage.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#80

Post by bane » Sun, Apr 06, 2014, 6:35 PM UTC

briantakita wrote: post #20

Karunamon wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>because people find it easier to heap hatred on someone they've never met, than to act with dignity and respect. Turn it around. Eich found it easier to treat millions of people he's never met as second class citizens, than to act with dignity and respect. There are two sides to this story, and you seem to be very eager to tell the one and handwave the other for a "why can't we all just get along" platitude.

> There are two sides to this story, and you seem to be very eager to tell the one and handwave the other for a "why can't we all just get along" platitude. We should treat people with respect. Not create a sensationalist backlash. Not punish people for having their opinions & being politically active on a gray area. Most of all, a rational discourse should take place. Not these sensationalist headlines that are desi…

Treating people with respect also means holding their opinions up to a respectable standard. There are some opinions that are disrespectable that otherwise good people harbor. Because you respect them, those opinions are even less tolerable.