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Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

christianheilmann.com

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Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#41

Post by joshstrange »

betterunix wrote: post #28
joshstrange wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (does not even matter if you still believe in what you said in the past or not... I did not saw anyone asking Eich) Full stop. He had ample opportunity to speak out but he didn't. When someone says "I believe X" I assume that that person believes X until they either say "I don't believe X" or "I believe in Y" where Y is the opposite/different viewpoint on the same issue. Eich has made no such statement therefore I…

"he cleverly dances around the fact that he feels that homosexuals do not deserve the same rights as heterosexuals." Yes, and obviously that is completely orthogonal to the kind of treatment he has received over his beliefs about gay marriage. It is easy to criticize people who are afraid to speak their minds when you have an army of thought police standing with you ready to punish anyone who dares to disagree.

I for one am extremely happy that we have an "army" of people ready to defend an oppressed group of people. Also this is not the "though police" he donated to a group working to destroy human rights for homosexuals. If we were talking about a CEO that was racist and had donated to the KKK would you still rush to call foul when they were forced to step down by popular opinion?

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#42

Post by skj »

betterunix wrote: post #8
codeoclock wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No no no, not "shut up" at all. That's not what I said. But, bear in mind that everything you say can affect your future. Which is totally fair enough. Judging a persons character by what they have said and done in the past is standard, and fair, practice. Expecting immunity from everything you've ever said or done is unrealistic. If Eich no longer believes what he believed, it's on him to make sure he makes that poi…

"If Eich no longer believes what he believed," So the issue is not speech but rather thought . George Orwell had a term for punishing people for their thoughts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

No, the action of donating money to helping the suppression.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#43

Post by Pacabel »

tomelders wrote: post #20

What world is this? When did everyone lose their minds and decide it was ok for some people to be Homophobes, but not for others? Can I be a racist if I'm a CEO? Am I free from criticism for my horrible beliefs just because I run an organisation that people like? Does donating $1000 to a movement that campaigns to take rights away form black people have any reflection on me? Can I be trusted to not let my world view…

I think you might be missing the overarching issue here.

It isn't so much about the specifics of gay marriage, or Eich's donation, or him losing his job because of his opinions.

The real issue is hypocrisy, contradiction and double-standards.

We've seen one group (in this case the pro-gay-marriage crowd) act in a way towards others (Eich and the anti-gay-marriage crowd) that the first group would think is absolutely abhorrent were they the target, yet they consider perfectly acceptable when they direct it towards others.

On one hand, we've seen arguments like, "There is no right to free speech without consequences." and, "he had views that the community was overwhelmingly against" used in this very submission's discussion to justify Eich losing his job merely for expressing an opinion that may be construed as against gay marriage.

Yet imagine the uproar if somebody lost his or her job for merely expressing an opinion in favor of gay marriage, and those exact same arguments were used to justify it.

It's difficult to take people seriously when they claim to support "equality" and "tolerance", or when they claim to be against "discrimination", yet they act in a way that's completely contradictory to all of those ideals.

If one group of people is going to hold another group of people to a certain set of standards, they really should make sure that they're willing to live by that exact same set of standards, too.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#44

Post by nailer »

tomelders wrote: post #23
nailer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume not supporting gay marriage makes someone a homophobe. Fine, but others would disagree.

It does. You do not get to chose the parameters of what makes a homophobe. The people who suffer at the whim of homophobes make that distinction. Opposition to same sex marriage is 100% homophobic. Same sex marriage doesn't hurt anyone. It's prejudice, plain and simple.

From the article you just read:

> For a cynical person, this would be a great way out: “OK, I am not $x, so it is not my problem, you just claimed that I have no right to an opinion as I never experienced the suffering. Done.”

I'm not going to debate you: re-posting your opinion with no supporting arguments means you've obviously made up your mind.

I think it's rubbish that someone can't access their life partner in hospital because they're not married, and support gay marriage based on that idea. But know there's a lot of people who:

- May have grown up with the idea of a bride and groom for most of their lives. Eich is 52.

- May think of marriage as a framework for raising children, and believe children have a right to a mother and father.

- May be closeted homosexuals who find homosexual behaviour confronting

Or a number of other reasons.

You're going to respond to this post with: "no, all those people are homophobes" - like Heilmann wrote about, you're looking for the box to put your angry comment in. I get it, you don't care about any arguments that disagree with your stance, you've concluded your thought process already.

But I'm writing this for our audience, who may put more thought in.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#45

Post by Amezarak »

brianchu wrote: post #11

Just so people are clear here, America has never had a right to free speech in the sense that a lot of people seem to be thinking. America has only ever had a legal right to free speech (and even then with many exceptions [1]); only government is bound by this. People tend to forget that the Constitution (and First Amendment) only applies to government. I haven't made up my mind whether Mozilla should have fired Bren…

I don't think when people are talking about free speech in the context of this discussion they are referring to the First Amendment. They are referring to an ideal of free speech, and the aims of having the legal right to free speech enshrined.

To take it to an extreme, the First Amendment wouldn't mean much if every single individual in society ostracized you for something you said. It would be small comfort that you weren't imprisoned even though you could no longer work, find shelter, eat, etc.

We are certainly free to call for boycotts and resignations, but we should use that freedom very, very carefully. That's how I saw it - I was often frustrated by the very many posts (not so much on HN) that essentially equated free speech totally with the First Amendment and then noted that it only protects you from censorship by the government. Of course! That's not what the argument is. Freedom of speech is enshrined in the First Amendment to protect us from government overreach, but that doesn't mean threats to free speech come solely from the government.

Nor do I think that protections from anything but the government should be enshrined in law - you couldn't do so without threatening freedom of speech and association, because all the speech, for and against Eich, was everyone's right. But in an ideal society I would hope for strong social norms that reserve such speech for truly outrageous and heinous behavior.

Of course, it is clearly the case that some people regard Eich's donation as truly outrageous and heinous (rather than just deeply wrong, discriminatory, etc), but that's a different debate.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#46

Post by tonymillion »

CrLf wrote: post #16

This whole story is disgusting. I'm still waiting to understand exactly where does a personal opinion on gay rights interfere with the ability to manage a company that basically develops a web browser. Just another witch hunt.

It matters because with the knowledge we have now, we'll never know if "Person X" was passed over for promotion because they were "a little bit gay" or they just weren't suited to the job.

With that permanently at the back of our minds, how can we ever trust his actions towards others are "fair and unbiased"?

The only way to ensure any equality in this situation would be to have a committee review his every action, which undermines his role as CEO.

This is a classic case of your prior actions coming to bite you in the ass later in life. Which is why you probably shouldn't post photos of you smoking pot, videos of you speeding in your moms car - or anything else thats reckless we do in our youth.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#47

Post by ghfdaghkj »

nailer wrote: post #10
codeoclock wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No no no, not "shut up" at all. That's not what I said. But, bear in mind that everything you say can affect your future. Which is totally fair enough. Judging a persons character by what they have said and done in the past is standard, and fair, practice. Expecting immunity from everything you've ever said or done is unrealistic. If Eich no longer believes what he believed, it's on him to make sure he makes that poi…

So, as Pacabel just asked, would you support someone being forced to leave their job because they supported gay marriage?

Sure, it's a free country. If someone doesn't want to exchange dollars for work hours anymore, for any reason, that should be totally fine.

I'd also stop giving that company money.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#48

Post by MetaCosm »

zimbatm wrote: post #37
tomelders wrote: post #20

What world is this? When did everyone lose their minds and decide it was ok for some people to be Homophobes, but not for others? Can I be a racist if I'm a CEO? Am I free from criticism for my horrible beliefs just because I run an organisation that people like? Does donating $1000 to a movement that campaigns to take rights away form black people have any reflection on me? Can I be trusted to not let my world view…

These are strong feelings. Don't you think that everyone is entitled to their own opinions ? In any case you can't force somebody to think differently, otherwise it's bullying. I'm pro LGBT and I think this is a loss for the cause. I'm pro LGBT because I don't think that people should get persecuted for being different. I want to promote peace, tolerance and compassion. Bullying someone into stepping down from his ro…

Would you be fine if Eich had donated $1000 to an group trying to stop inter-racial marriage? Inter-racial marriage issues are not some far past thing, "In October 2009, Keith Bardwell, a Louisiana justice of the peace, refused to issue a marriage license to an interracial couple..."

In your mind, is being against interracial marriage just an opinion people shouldn't be held to account for... or like me, would you say "of course fire the racist asshole".

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#49

Post by stephenr »

Pacabel wrote: post #43
tomelders wrote: post #20

What world is this? When did everyone lose their minds and decide it was ok for some people to be Homophobes, but not for others? Can I be a racist if I'm a CEO? Am I free from criticism for my horrible beliefs just because I run an organisation that people like? Does donating $1000 to a movement that campaigns to take rights away form black people have any reflection on me? Can I be trusted to not let my world view…

I think you might be missing the overarching issue here. It isn't so much about the specifics of gay marriage, or Eich's donation, or him losing his job because of his opinions. The real issue is hypocrisy, contradiction and double-standards. We've seen one group (in this case the pro-gay-marriage crowd) act in a way towards others (Eich and the anti-gay-marriage crowd) that the first group would think is absolutely…

Not tolerating intolerance, is not intolerance.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#50

Post by Fice »

tomelders wrote: post #20

What world is this? When did everyone lose their minds and decide it was ok for some people to be Homophobes, but not for others? Can I be a racist if I'm a CEO? Am I free from criticism for my horrible beliefs just because I run an organisation that people like? Does donating $1000 to a movement that campaigns to take rights away form black people have any reflection on me? Can I be trusted to not let my world view…

Being in opposition to same-sex marriage does not make one a homophobe (even some gays are against it). If Eich did not express any aversion or hatred towards homosexuals, it is not justified to label him as a homophobe.
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