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Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

christianheilmann.com

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Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#11

Post by brianchu »

Just so people are clear here, America has never had a right to free speech in the sense that a lot of people seem to be thinking. America has only ever had a legal right to free speech (and even then with many exceptions [1]); only government is bound by this. People tend to forget that the Constitution (and First Amendment) only applies to government.

I haven't made up my mind whether Mozilla should have fired Brendan.

[1] One of those is hate crimes against certain classes of people.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#12

Post by tomelders »

Pacabel wrote: post #6
codeoclock wrote: post #2

He had the right to free speech. He exercised his right to free speech. He had to deal with the consequences. There is no right to free speech without consequences. Each and every person who has the right to free speech (because remember, many don't) can say whatever they like, but cannot possibly expect it to never affect them further down the road. Particularly when you're in the position of CEO where you're expect…

From what I can tell, you're suggesting that it's perfectly acceptable for somebody to lose his or her job merely for expressing a stance against gay marriage. Does that mean that it's also perfectly acceptable for somebody to lose his or her job merely for expressing a stance in favor of gay marriage?

This is madness. Is it ok for someone to lose their job for being racist? Is it ok for someone to lose their job for not being racist? Is it ok for someone to lose their job for being sexist? Is it ok for someone to lose their job for not being sexist?

Is it ok for someone to lose their job for being homophobic? Yes. Is it ok for someone to lose their job for not being homophobic? No.

Do people lose their jobs for being LGB or T? Yes. Do people lose their jobs for supporting LGBT rights. Yes.

If you think some people have less rights than other people just because of the way they were born, then you're a bad person. He wasn't born a homophobe, he became one, and it's just and right to make assessments of people for the things they chose to do.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#13

Post by betterunix »

brianchu wrote: post #11

Just so people are clear here, America has never had a right to free speech in the sense that a lot of people seem to be thinking. America has only ever had a legal right to free speech (and even then with many exceptions [1]); only government is bound by this. People tend to forget that the Constitution (and First Amendment) only applies to government. I haven't made up my mind whether Mozilla should have fired Bren…

That does not mean it is acceptable for people to band together and bully anyone who disagrees with them. All it means is that the legal system is not going to help us, and that we have to take it upon ourselves to remind people not to behave in this manner.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#14

Post by thoradam »

Pacabel wrote: post #6
codeoclock wrote: post #2

He had the right to free speech. He exercised his right to free speech. He had to deal with the consequences. There is no right to free speech without consequences. Each and every person who has the right to free speech (because remember, many don't) can say whatever they like, but cannot possibly expect it to never affect them further down the road. Particularly when you're in the position of CEO where you're expect…

From what I can tell, you're suggesting that it's perfectly acceptable for somebody to lose his or her job merely for expressing a stance against gay marriage. Does that mean that it's also perfectly acceptable for somebody to lose his or her job merely for expressing a stance in favor of gay marriage?

This really isn't that complicated, he had views that the community was overwhelmingly against, hence he was not qualified to serve as CEO. The community did not fire him.

Also, there's a fundamental difference between the two views you juxtaposed. One suppresses the freedom of others, while the other promotes it. You can't really be intolerant by being against intolerance.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#15

Post by nailer »

brianchu wrote: post #11

Just so people are clear here, America has never had a right to free speech in the sense that a lot of people seem to be thinking. America has only ever had a legal right to free speech (and even then with many exceptions [1]); only government is bound by this. People tend to forget that the Constitution (and First Amendment) only applies to government. I haven't made up my mind whether Mozilla should have fired Bren…

Agreed re: free speech law, but forcing someone to resign for their religious beliefs still seems somewhat dubious.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#17

Post by nailer »

tomelders wrote: post #12
Pacabel wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I can tell, you're suggesting that it's perfectly acceptable for somebody to lose his or her job merely for expressing a stance against gay marriage. Does that mean that it's also perfectly acceptable for somebody to lose his or her job merely for expressing a stance in favor of gay marriage?

This is madness. Is it ok for someone to lose their job for being racist? Is it ok for someone to lose their job for not being racist? Is it ok for someone to lose their job for being sexist? Is it ok for someone to lose their job for not being sexist? Is it ok for someone to lose their job for being homophobic? Yes. Is it ok for someone to lose their job for not being homophobic? No. Do people lose their jobs for be…

You assume not supporting gay marriage makes someone a homophobe. Fine, but others would disagree.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#18

Post by betterunix »

tomelders wrote: post #12
Pacabel wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I can tell, you're suggesting that it's perfectly acceptable for somebody to lose his or her job merely for expressing a stance against gay marriage. Does that mean that it's also perfectly acceptable for somebody to lose his or her job merely for expressing a stance in favor of gay marriage?

This is madness. Is it ok for someone to lose their job for being racist? Is it ok for someone to lose their job for not being racist? Is it ok for someone to lose their job for being sexist? Is it ok for someone to lose their job for not being sexist? Is it ok for someone to lose their job for being homophobic? Yes. Is it ok for someone to lose their job for not being homophobic? No. Do people lose their jobs for be…

"Do people lose their jobs for supporting LGBT rights. Yes."

Which is as much of a problem as what happened to Brendan Eich.

"If you think some people have less rights than other people just because of the way they were born, then you're a bad person."

Careful with that; all it would take is some new research on sexuality and sexual orientations to completely undermine that point.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#19

Post by thristian »

Pacabel wrote: post #6
codeoclock wrote: post #2

He had the right to free speech. He exercised his right to free speech. He had to deal with the consequences. There is no right to free speech without consequences. Each and every person who has the right to free speech (because remember, many don't) can say whatever they like, but cannot possibly expect it to never affect them further down the road. Particularly when you're in the position of CEO where you're expect…

From what I can tell, you're suggesting that it's perfectly acceptable for somebody to lose his or her job merely for expressing a stance against gay marriage. Does that mean that it's also perfectly acceptable for somebody to lose his or her job merely for expressing a stance in favor of gay marriage?

If gay marriage adversely affected people that the somebody had authority over, then certainly: that person should lose their job for taking that stance. You can't effectively lead people who are afraid of you.

If Eich hadn't been in a position where his views could adversely affect Mozilla employees (as he hadn't up until a few weeks ago) there would have been no problem (as there wasn't up until a few weeks ago).

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#20

Post by tomelders »

What world is this? When did everyone lose their minds and decide it was ok for some people to be Homophobes, but not for others?

Can I be a racist if I'm a CEO? Am I free from criticism for my horrible beliefs just because I run an organisation that people like? Does donating $1000 to a movement that campaigns to take rights away form black people have any reflection on me? Can I be trusted to not let my world view have any effect on my work?

Can a cop be a homophobe, or a racist, and still be trusted to do their job without letting their world view interfere with the application of the law?

I'm genuinely sickened by the people here on HN clamouring to pardon Eich and blame those with a strong moral compass for the downfall he inflicted on himself.

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