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Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

christianheilmann.com

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Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#31

Post by yummyfajitas »

brianchu wrote: post #11

Just so people are clear here, America has never had a right to free speech in the sense that a lot of people seem to be thinking. America has only ever had a legal right to free speech (and even then with many exceptions [1]); only government is bound by this. People tend to forget that the Constitution (and First Amendment) only applies to government. I haven't made up my mind whether Mozilla should have fired Bren…

You are absolutely correct that the private sector campaigns against Eich, Orson Scott Card, or Hollywood Communists were not violations of the constitutional amendment.

But one can also appeal to a more general principle of free speech, which is ultimately what many people are doing. Scott Alexander has useful thoughts on this topic: http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/12/29/the-spirit-of-the-first...

"A good response to an argument is one that addresses an idea; a bad argument is one that silences it."

The gay activists here are attempting to do the latter. It's no different from assorted people attacking Kathy Sierra [1] or Scooby1961 [2], except of course that we happen to like Sierra and Scooby's opinions.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Sierra#Harassment [2] Scooby is probably less familiar to the HN crowd, he's a bodybuilder/fitness guru who was doxxed by 4chan for no apparent reason. http://newmediarockstars.com/2013/07/4chan-bullies-fitness-g...

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#32

Post by ghfdaghkj »

> The last few days were horrible. Not like my house burned down and I lost a limb horrible or people put me in prison and violating me horrible, but a lot of pressure, a barrage of anger and a feeling of helplessness. Also a feeling of betrayal and a feeling of being powerless.

Seriously? A rich old white guy has a lot of newfound free time. Who cares?

Life must be so rough for Brendan Eich right now. Wow, maybe he feels like a transgender person does every day!

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#33

Post by tomelders »

betterunix wrote: post #18
tomelders wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is madness. Is it ok for someone to lose their job for being racist? Is it ok for someone to lose their job for not being racist? Is it ok for someone to lose their job for being sexist? Is it ok for someone to lose their job for not being sexist? Is it ok for someone to lose their job for being homophobic? Yes. Is it ok for someone to lose their job for not being homophobic? No. Do people lose their jobs for be…

"Do people lose their jobs for supporting LGBT rights. Yes." Which is as much of a problem as what happened to Brendan Eich. "If you think some people have less rights than other people just because of the way they were born, then you're a bad person." Careful with that; all it would take is some new research on sexuality and sexual orientations to completely undermine that point.

There's no evidence to support the idea that people are "made" homosexual. The only sane assumption to make is "Some people are gay, they're probably born that way."

Some people have more pubic hair than others. We have to wait until puberty before we know which people will have lots of pubic hair and which ones wont. But by your logic, there's some external force that occurs during childhood that will determine how much pubic hair a person will have. You'd be an idiot to think that way.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#34

Post by ghfdaghkj »

CrLf wrote: post #16

This whole story is disgusting. I'm still waiting to understand exactly where does a personal opinion on gay rights interfere with the ability to manage a company that basically develops a web browser. Just another witch hunt.

I wouldn't work for Mozilla if he was the CEO. I doubt they care about that specifically, but a lot of other developers probably feel the same. Good luck hiring any gay people. Employees were in revolt, one went on strike, etc.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#35

Post by rdc12 »

betterunix wrote: post #8
codeoclock wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No no no, not "shut up" at all. That's not what I said. But, bear in mind that everything you say can affect your future. Which is totally fair enough. Judging a persons character by what they have said and done in the past is standard, and fair, practice. Expecting immunity from everything you've ever said or done is unrealistic. If Eich no longer believes what he believed, it's on him to make sure he makes that poi…

"If Eich no longer believes what he believed," So the issue is not speech but rather thought . George Orwell had a term for punishing people for their thoughts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

And he acted on his thought about marriage equality, so it was not a piece of thoughtcrime

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#36

Post by crankyc0der »

tomelders wrote: post #20

What world is this? When did everyone lose their minds and decide it was ok for some people to be Homophobes, but not for others? Can I be a racist if I'm a CEO? Am I free from criticism for my horrible beliefs just because I run an organisation that people like? Does donating $1000 to a movement that campaigns to take rights away form black people have any reflection on me? Can I be trusted to not let my world view…

Wah? Fascism much?

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#37

Post by zimbatm »

tomelders wrote: post #20

What world is this? When did everyone lose their minds and decide it was ok for some people to be Homophobes, but not for others? Can I be a racist if I'm a CEO? Am I free from criticism for my horrible beliefs just because I run an organisation that people like? Does donating $1000 to a movement that campaigns to take rights away form black people have any reflection on me? Can I be trusted to not let my world view…

These are strong feelings. Don't you think that everyone is entitled to their own opinions ? In any case you can't force somebody to think differently, otherwise it's bullying.

I'm pro LGBT and I think this is a loss for the cause. I'm pro LGBT because I don't think that people should get persecuted for being different. I want to promote peace, tolerance and compassion. Bullying someone into stepping down from his role is contrary to that belief.

Do you really think that Eich staying in his post would have made a difference to the LGBT cause ?

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#38

Post by wcummings »

betterunix wrote: post #13
brianchu wrote: post #11

Just so people are clear here, America has never had a right to free speech in the sense that a lot of people seem to be thinking. America has only ever had a legal right to free speech (and even then with many exceptions [1]); only government is bound by this. People tend to forget that the Constitution (and First Amendment) only applies to government. I haven't made up my mind whether Mozilla should have fired Bren…

That does not mean it is acceptable for people to band together and bully anyone who disagrees with them. All it means is that the legal system is not going to help us, and that we have to take it upon ourselves to remind people not to behave in this manner.

Racism and sexism are often considered firable offenses. For many, this feels no different. The fact that its tied to a "religious belief" or is still something that can be voted on makes it no less bigoted.

His poor response didn't help: "if you disagree with me you're oppressing the poor Indonesians who don't have a mouthpiece!". What an asshole.

The fact is, donating to support prop 8 is bigotry in and of itself. Many have said no one experienced overt discrimination, but all that really means is that he wasn't bigoted to the victims' faces, he quietly donated to a cause with the intent of stripping people he calls his friends of their rights. He apologized for hurting his LGBT friends, but stops short of actually apologizing and then justifies his beliefs with those of a 3rd world country.

Free speech has nothing to do with this, this is someone whose actions many people, both inside and outside of the organization, found incompatible with what they saw as Mozilla's values, and who can blame them?

Tl;dr opposing gay marriage is widely seen as a despicable and regressive cause that many people do not want to associate with

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#39

Post by yummyfajitas »

tomelders wrote: post #23
nailer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume not supporting gay marriage makes someone a homophobe. Fine, but others would disagree.

It does. You do not get to chose the parameters of what makes a homophobe. The people who suffer at the whim of homophobes make that distinction. Opposition to same sex marriage is 100% homophobic. Same sex marriage doesn't hurt anyone. It's prejudice, plain and simple.

You do not get to chose the parameters of what makes a homophobe. The people who suffer at the whim of homophobes make that distinction.

Your logic is flawed. Group A defines group B, and group B defines group A. As a result, there is no way to define membership in group A or B.

Opposition to same sex marriage is 100% homophobic. Same sex marriage doesn't hurt anyone. It's prejudice, plain and simple.

Does this apply to all acts that don't hurt anyone, yet are not subsidized/supported by the government? Paying below minimum wage? Failing to buy health insurance? Cutting hair without a license? Failing to purchase a home?

Somehow I don't think you actually believe your own argument.

Re: Torn and weary (on Brendan Eich and Mozilla)

#40

Post by crankyc0der »

davidw wrote: post #29
betterunix wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does not mean it is acceptable for people to band together and bully anyone who disagrees with them. All it means is that the legal system is not going to help us, and that we have to take it upon ourselves to remind people not to behave in this manner.

Something I've been wondering about this confusing issue is: do people think it's never ok to ostracize someone for their views? Say he donated money to the KKK, or ... you make up some really heinous, hideous belief ...? Still ok? And going the other way, to something a bit broader/more mainstream, say he donated to the Republican Party. Ok to ostracize him? To me it seems like people have some kind of dividing line…

American? Contribute to one of the world powers via taxes? Throw stones much?
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