Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO • Hacker News Board

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#861

Post by bzbarsky » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 3:53 AM UTC

nickonline wrote: post #822

hkphooey wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo. It seems that some Mozilla employees and members of the public deluded themselves into thinking Mozilla was some kind of political charity fighting for social causes, rather than being a technology company.

No one is deluded into thinking Mozilla is a political charity. They most certainly are a technology company and everyone knows that, so are the companies behind Chrome, Internet Explorer and Safari. As far as I know none of the CEO's behind those companies are openly anti-gay marriage. The public, and the employees of Mozilla have expressed that this is not an appropriate view for the CEO to hold and will move to ot…

> and the employees of Mozilla

More precisely, a few employees. A similar number of employees are clearly on record as saying they don't agree with Brendan's position but don't think it's incompatible with him being CEO. A vastly larger number of employees didn't say anything in public at all, not least because many of them (e.g. all the non-gay ones) could not do so without being accused of supporting the views in question.

Of course the employees who did speak out in favor of Brendan staying as CEO got death threats for their troubles (see bottom of http://www.twobraids.com/2014/03/the-mozilla-ceo.html for example), because that's apparently how debate goes on the internet nowadays.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#862

Post by beedogs » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 3:53 AM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #730

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Support for Prop 8 has a huge age gradient, as does anti-homosexuality in general. Support for Prop 8 falls by about 0.75% per year Ages 18-24 voted overwhelmingly against it. 65+ voted overwhelmingly for it. Old people hate gays. Young people don't. Support for Prop 8 among young people in the SF Bay Area is negligible. These are the people Eich was supposed to lead as CEO of Mozilla. You can't lead people who think…

The problem is that support for Prop 8 has been misrepresented as "hate" of gays, and that gullible young people have been tricked to support the gay agenda in the first place, and also to believe anyone who disagrees with that agenda is a "reprehensible bigot". If "gay rights" are really so self-evident, let's confront the haters and explain in a clear, concise manner why their beliefs are invalid. The thing is that…

What's ridiculous about it? People who would deny homosexuals the right to marry are reprehensible. It's not too hard to understand.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#863

Post by ralfd » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 3:55 AM UTC

shinratdr wrote: post #848

ralfd wrote: post #772

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Eich isn't arguing or advocating anything. All he made was to donate to a popular proposition, I mean, it did found the majority of the electorate (then). In all other comments I read from him, he says his private politic views are a private matter and I agree with him there. I also think donations of this rather small size ($1000) should not needed to be publicly disclosed.

What does it being popular have to do with anything? Popular bigotry is still bigotry. A donation in support of that bigotry is tantamount to bigotry. Finally, personal political views absolutely enter in to public debate when the views are held by a public figurehead that is in place to represent the ideals of an organization. This is how you change public opinion, by making it dangerous to hold these views and stil…

Oxford defines bigotry as "Intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself". Which is exactly what is done to Eich, just by bigots from the other side.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#864

Post by beedogs » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 4:00 AM UTC

barking wrote: post #580

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #521

I am stunned at how many people on HN seem to thing Eich should not be judged on his personal so-called "political" views. If he was a racist in favor of segregation would people still take that position? I seriously doubt it.

Taking a view is one thing, persecution is another.

Right. And he donated to help eliminate gay marriage in California; to me, that counts as persecution.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#865

Post by bzbarsky » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 4:01 AM UTC

ScottBurson wrote: post #776

xaa wrote: post #431

My father-in-law is a high-level official in the "Alliance Defending Freedom", which is essentially the conservative counterpart to the ACLU, providing legal advice to conservative causes. For years, he's been telling me about the "gay liberal agenda", which, to him, was not just about promoting gay rights, but also about silencing any freedom of speech advocating opposing viewpoints. I always pooh-poohed him and gen…

I think the question you have to ask is, who is responsible for Eich's ouster? To the extent it was primarily Mozilla employees, I don't think there's a problem. If they feel they can't work for this man, for any reason, they have the right to say so. If the Board finds that enough employees object to him, they can and should find someone else. If it was primarily public opinion, I agree that that's unfortunate. I do…

You're not going to find ~1000 people who "collectively", without dissenters, support anything unless you picked those people on the basis of their support for that one thing.

The public info I see has several employees not supporting Brendan as CEO, a few more not supporting the bad PR having Brendan as CEO will produce, and some more supporting him being CEO, with the vast majority of employees keeping quiet. Not least because for those of them who are not gay they have no sane way of expressing support without being accused of just agreeing with Brendan's views.

What really happened here was a combination of public opinion and the press picking up things and running with them (including the false reports about the reasons for board member resignations), which further fanned public opinion, which further fanned press about the issue. No one was much listening to what employees had to say except as it suited their preconceived stories; note that the mainstream press did not report on the employees who came out publicly in support of Brendan staying as CEO.

In the end, as far as I can tell, it wasn't the board asking Brendan to resign; it was him deciding to resign because he felt that the way the press was presenting the story (falsehoods and all) was too damaging to Mozilla as an organization.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#866

Post by beedogs » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 4:01 AM UTC

JasonFruit wrote: post #833

wpietri wrote: post #746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Mozilla appointed, say, a KKK Grand Wizard to the post of CEO, that would definitely be relevant. First, because every non-white person would immediately have rational cause to fear discrimination. Second, because every anti-racist employee, partner, and donor would have incentive to reevaluate their willingness to help Mozilla along. And third, it would be an enormous PR nightmare, an unending distraction from Mo…

There's a big difference between donating $1000 to a legal political cause and being a leader in an organization known for violent and illegal activity. If someone donated $1000 to the Freedom From Religion Foundation's legal fund, would that mean they could not be the CEO of a non-profit organization that might employ religious people?

No. Think about why.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#867

Post by defen » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 4:03 AM UTC

themgt wrote: post #549

dopamean wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you but I think the problem here is that being against gay marriage is more than just a "political view." Being for low taxes is a political view. Being for smaller government is a political view. Believing a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like other simply because of who they love is not a political view. It reads as extremely hateful and that makes people uncomforta…

Right. How many people would be in here saying this is a free-speech issue if he had donated money to support a law against marriages between people of different races? It is absolutely about human rights, and I applaud the community for drawing a red line on this.

People keep bringing up interracial marriage, but really it's a red herring. Interracial marriage does not involve a fundamental change to the way marriage works. Furthermore, in practice it is not enforceable, since you would have to know someone's entire ancestry to know whether they were eligible to marry another person.

Anyway, to answer your question: If I found out that my CEO had donated to an anti-interracial-marriage campaign, but had never discriminated against or otherwise treated people in such relationships differently, I wouldn't particularly care.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#868

Post by jcfiala » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 4:06 AM UTC

Oculus wrote: post #6

I'm not sure how I feel about this one. On the one hand, Brendan Eich had some beliefs that were against Mozilla's core values, but on the other hand we just showed that when a mob on the Internet wants something - they get it. It's scary because this mob has global reach, unlimited power, but isn't always right.

The mob on the internet got it this time due to some rather specific circumstances. There are plenty of companies out there that Brendan Eich could have been promoted to CEO of, which wouldn't have cared nearly as much about this level of controversy.

It basically comes down to this - if Mozilla cares this much about what the internet thinks of it this strongly, then why didn't they pick someone else to begin with?

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#869

Post by Aqueous » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 4:10 AM UTC

dopamean wrote: post #773

smsm42 wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> it's reasonable for gay employees and business partners to be concerned. Unless Mozilla has entered into business of organizing gay weddings while I wasn't looking - no, it's not reasonable at all. No more than gun owner should be concerned if his CEO donated to a known anti-gun politician, or a medical marijuana user should be concerned if his business partner donated to a politician that opposes drug legalizati…

It is absolutely reasonable for gay employees to be concerned. As CEO of a company guides company policy about a lot of things that have nothing to do with writing code such as health benefits.

The link between any particular issue and what Eich's day-to-day responsibility would have been can be made as tenuously as we want. I could argue six-degrees-of-separation-style that every belief he held is relevant to his position. The basic point remains: we shouldn't be punishing people for holding beliefs that we disagree with, or coerce them into renouncing their disagreement in order to remain in our good graces. That's not democracy and it's not how you win a policy argument. No matter how right or wrong the belief in question is, such policing creates a hostile environment where people are afraid to argue, debate, and say what they really think.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#870

Post by drdeca » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 4:18 AM UTC

thumbtackthief wrote: post #349

weixiyen wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the ideal CEO is someone who will lie about his beliefs the second it becomes inconvenient for him?

He could have at least honestly said that he wouldn't donate to such causes again. In the current climate, that would just be a foolish waste of money anyway.

Because, of course, a lie of omission* can't really be considered a lie at all!

Of course, it all depends what we mean by lie. In my experience this tends to vary from person to person.

Personally, I do tend to lie of omission* much more willingly than not of omission, though I am not really convinced that it is any more moral.