Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO • Hacker News Board

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#771

Post by Xcelerate » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 12:22 AM UTC

DatBear wrote: post #631

dopamean wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you but I think the problem here is that being against gay marriage is more than just a "political view." Being for low taxes is a political view. Being for smaller government is a political view. Believing a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like other simply because of who they love is not a political view. It reads as extremely hateful and that makes people uncomforta…

I keep hearing people saying that gay marriage is more than just a political view, but so is every other political view. Don't support welfare? You're against poor people. Support welfare? You're against the working man. You're pro-choice? You're against babies. You're pro-life? You're against women. Pretty much every political stance can be viewed in the same fashion as people are viewing Eich's. The thing is, Eich…

Well put. The problem is that on almost every issue, people think their own personal view is "above" the issue somehow (see dopamean's comment at the top of this page for an example). Atheists claim they shouldn't even have to debate religious people because it's so "obvious". Pro-choice people claim they shouldn't even have to debate pro-life people because women's rights are "so obvious". Same thing with gay marriage.

This is simply a horrible and almost completely ineffective way to argue your point. You can't pull the "so obvious" cop-out on any issue that has a clearly decisive split within a country.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#772

Post by ralfd » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 12:28 AM UTC

ucarion wrote: post #103

Oculus wrote: post #6

I'm not sure how I feel about this one. On the one hand, Brendan Eich had some beliefs that were against Mozilla's core values, but on the other hand we just showed that when a mob on the Internet wants something - they get it. It's scary because this mob has global reach, unlimited power, but isn't always right.

There are beliefs in this world that you cannot publicly hold and still expect to be taken seriously. If Eich were arguing against interracial marriage there would be very little debate about this issue; believing that humans cannot marry between races is not a belief modern society continues to respect. I think this controversy is an indication that -- to the tech community at least -- believing that discrimination…

But Eich isn't arguing or advocating anything. All he made was to donate to a popular proposition, I mean, it did found the majority of the electorate (then). In all other comments I read from him, he says his private politic views are a private matter and I agree with him there. I also think donations of this rather small size ($1000) should not needed to be publicly disclosed.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#773

Post by dopamean » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 12:29 AM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #751

wpietri wrote: post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting money behind Prop 8 helped strip a civil right from gay people. It's technically true that proves nothing about Eich's beliefs. Heck, maybe it was Eich's personal Opposite Day. But does it matter? Even the bible says, "You will know them by their fruits," meaning that it's reasonable to judge people by what they do. The pseudo-gotcha about tolerance is ridiculous, an accusation of hypocrisy based on a straw m…

>>> it's reasonable for gay employees and business partners to be concerned. Unless Mozilla has entered into business of organizing gay weddings while I wasn't looking - no, it's not reasonable at all. No more than gun owner should be concerned if his CEO donated to a known anti-gun politician, or a medical marijuana user should be concerned if his business partner donated to a politician that opposes drug legalizati…

It is absolutely reasonable for gay employees to be concerned. As CEO of a company guides company policy about a lot of things that have nothing to do with writing code such as health benefits.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#774

Post by ralfd » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 12:30 AM UTC

return0 wrote: post #54

Oculus wrote: post #6

I'm not sure how I feel about this one. On the one hand, Brendan Eich had some beliefs that were against Mozilla's core values, but on the other hand we just showed that when a mob on the Internet wants something - they get it. It's scary because this mob has global reach, unlimited power, but isn't always right.

For example, if the mob tomorrow decides that it's OK to give up privacy for "security", mozilla will happily have to oblige to become a state security tool. That's why strong leadership with values is needed.

Ironically I think it is ultimately a privacy issue. His (small) donation shouldn't have been publicly disclosed.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#775

Post by deveac » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 12:31 AM UTC

DangerousPie wrote: post #45

I am a strong supporter of gay marriage, but I have to say that I find this very unfortunate and worrying. Apparently many Mozilla supporters seem to think it is okay to bully a qualified person out of his job only for his political views, even if they had absolutely no effect on his qualification or his actions on the job. I can't help but feel like this campaign has done a lot more harm to him than his $1000 donati…

Apparently many Mozilla supporters seem to think it is okay to bully a qualified person out of his job only for his political views

He was not qualified for his job. Mozilla is a non-profit organization founded on ideals. It has a social and ethical mission as opposed to a directive to earn profits for shareholders. His social views made him unqualified to lead a company whose purpose was social good.

There are plenty of for profit businesses that do not fit that mold where he would be a better fit.

Additionally, he was not bullied. He gave publicly supported both in words and tangible resources initiatives to deny equality to others and people within his organization and without responded vocally and negatively. If that falls within the definition of bullying (I don't consider vocally calling out bigotry and intolerance as applicable here) then I'd argue he was a far bigger bully than those outraged by his actions and appointment.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#776

Post by ScottBurson » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 12:34 AM UTC

xaa wrote: post #431

My father-in-law is a high-level official in the "Alliance Defending Freedom", which is essentially the conservative counterpart to the ACLU, providing legal advice to conservative causes. For years, he's been telling me about the "gay liberal agenda", which, to him, was not just about promoting gay rights, but also about silencing any freedom of speech advocating opposing viewpoints. I always pooh-poohed him and gen…

I think the question you have to ask is, who is responsible for Eich's ouster?

To the extent it was primarily Mozilla employees, I don't think there's a problem. If they feel they can't work for this man, for any reason, they have the right to say so. If the Board finds that enough employees object to him, they can and should find someone else.

If it was primarily public opinion, I agree that that's unfortunate. I don't know for sure, but my guess is that public opinion, loud as it has been, played only a supporting role. If the employees collectively supported Eich, they could have said so, and I think criticism by the general public would have died down sooner or later.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#777

Post by jcromartie » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 12:34 AM UTC

nilkn wrote: post #543

jcromartie wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also say that it was pretty much unacceptable to support women's suffrage or be against slavery in certain times and places. But, the thing is, these ideas have trajectories. The idea that slavery is wrong or women should have the right to vote never got less accepted over time.

> The idea that slavery is wrong or women should have the right to vote never got less accepted over time. This cannot be the case, because those ideas have not existed since the beginning of time. They had an origin and therefore an upward trajectory towards their reification in law.

With a scant few matriarchal societies aside, most of human history is absolutely dominated by men making other men and women subservient to them. That's the story of humanity.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#778

Post by wwweston » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 12:35 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #740

gfodor wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support legalizing gay marriage. But two things, first, supporting prop 8 does not mean you "believe a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like others." It means you don't believe that the government should recognize same sex marriages as marriages. There are a large gradient of views here, and on one extreme are the bigots who hate homosexuals and on the other there are people who simply have…

Putting money behind Prop 8 helped strip a civil right from gay people. It's technically true that proves nothing about Eich's beliefs. Heck, maybe it was Eich's personal Opposite Day. But does it matter? Even the bible says, "You will know them by their fruits," meaning that it's reasonable to judge people by what they do. The pseudo-gotcha about tolerance is ridiculous, an accusation of hypocrisy based on a straw m…

> Even the bible says, "You will know them by their fruits," meaning that it's reasonable to judge people by what they do.

That's reasonable enough.

On the other hand, it's selective at best to limit the applied focus to his donations.

He's spent a lot of time/effort working at and building up Mozilla, a Mozilla that has an equitable/inclusive code of treatment, a Mozilla where by several LGBT accounts his co-workers felt interaction with him was free of aggression, a Mozilla where where co-workers felt free to defend or reject his appointment. And he invited everyone to judge him by those standards had he kept on.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#779

Post by ralfd » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 12:37 AM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #106

amaral-herberth wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not right on this one. Eich was clearly persecuted politically.

No. A bunch of people, many who were members of that community, felt that Eich's personal views were incompatible with a relatively important and visible community position. It's not persecution to object to the appointment on that basis.

If you had asked me a few weeks ago who was CEO of Mozilla I couldn't have answered the question and neither cared. I suspect a large part of hn would have felt the same.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#780

Post by wnoise » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 12:37 AM UTC

muyuu wrote: post #390

Wow. The bullying of Brendan Eich really makes me question whether I should support Mozilla any longer. And ashamed I have donated in the past. This is pure fascism.

Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, combined with a regulated economic structure of cooperation between major corporations and the government.

This is rather different.