Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO • Hacker News Board

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#731

Post by DerKommissar » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 11:05 PM UTC

SimHacker wrote: post #345

radicalbyte wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All he had to do was lie I may be diametrically opposed to Brendan's views, but he has earned my respect by being honest and sticking to his values.

You should respect him if he had the integrity to earnestly change his views. But he deserves absolutely no respect for sticking to views that are wrong and hateful that he refuses to even justify. Just because you were a bigot 15 years ago doesn't mean you should respect bigots who haven't changed their opinions yet. You deserve some respect for changing your views, but Brendan only deserves contempt for failing to…

I think Eich is a bigot and I'm glad he stepped down. I don't see how someone can be against gay marriage and not have a problem with homosexuality in general.

How does one go about changing their views? They just wake up one day they're like "hmmm.. I just don't hate gays anymore"? Most of the reformed racists and other bigots I've heard about have become that way because something happened, maybe a family member came out or a black dude helped them jump start their car or something stupid like that.

Your comments read just like the people that claim homosexuality is a choice and gays should just choose to not be gay.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#732

Post by InclinedPlane » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 11:06 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #624

InclinedPlane wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just moral relativism and reductionist analysis. It's easy to frame problems in a light where it's impossible to make an objective judgment. This is like saying that violence is wrong. Sure, in the abstract, but in practice there's an objective difference between the use of violence for oppression, personal gain, and domination and the use of violence as self-defense. Let's go to first principles here. Which,…

Your reasoning here is very similar to the rationale for oppressing Communist sympathizers during the Red Scare. They were opposed to the democratic principles of America and we ostracized them for it, and I'd thought the lesson we took from it was that we were very much in the wrong. I fully support gay rights, but I have trouble embracing what feels like a new form of McCarthyism (just s/Communist/homophobe/).

Hardly. There's an enormous difference between publicly ostracizing someone for holding beliefs or a political position that you disagree with and oppression. But there's leagues of distance between using speech and private choices (like whom to do business with) on the one hand and using the machinery of the government to deny people rights and to harass them at every turn.

For example, the KKK is horrendously ostracized in this country. And I think that's OK. But while they might be ostracized, KKK members still enjoy their rights, they still have the opportunity for free speech. And I think that's important too. I wouldn't equate the ostracization of open racism with McCarthyism and I don't think most folks would either.

The lesson from the McCarthyism scare isn't that ostracizing people for their beliefs is wrong. That's a valuable, even essential, function of society and an important aspect of free expression. Although we should definitely be careful in its use. The lesson is that hounding people for mostly private activities or activities in their past is wrong, and conducting public witch-hunts using the power of the government where the flimsiest of evidence is allowed to decide someone's fate is also wrong.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#733

Post by vacri » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 11:11 PM UTC

DangerousPie wrote: post #45

I am a strong supporter of gay marriage, but I have to say that I find this very unfortunate and worrying. Apparently many Mozilla supporters seem to think it is okay to bully a qualified person out of his job only for his political views, even if they had absolutely no effect on his qualification or his actions on the job. I can't help but feel like this campaign has done a lot more harm to him than his $1000 donati…

Apparently many Mozilla supporters... bully

I would wager that plenty of those opposing Eich don't actually use Mozilla products. Chrome is the most popular browser, not Firefox, and their other products aren't monopolies either. Of the several screeds I read against Eich, not one of them said "We currently use a Mozilla product and now no longer will".

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#734

Post by baddox » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 11:11 PM UTC

Borogove wrote: post #712

baddox wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I generally agree with you but I think the problem here is that being against gay marriage is more than just a "political view." Not necessarily. It's quite possible to support gay partners' legal right to live together, file taxes together, set up wills and visitation rights, adopt children, etc., but still oppose changing the legally-defined notion of marriage.

You'll forgive me if I find expanding the definition of "marriage" in state and federal law to be a more reasonable approach than having to fight separate battles for each of the 1000+ legal rights and obligations which currently accrue to married couples.

No forgiveness necessary. I think that's a valid strategy.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#735

Post by incongruity » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 11:12 PM UTC

phaus wrote: post #724

gfodor wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support legalizing gay marriage. But two things, first, supporting prop 8 does not mean you "believe a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like others." It means you don't believe that the government should recognize same sex marriages as marriages. There are a large gradient of views here, and on one extreme are the bigots who hate homosexuals and on the other there are people who simply have…

>there are people who simply have hangups about the word "marriage" vs "civil unions." And this 'hangup' is simply idiotic. Christians that speak of 'civil unions' are trying to hold homosexuals' rights hostage so they can pretend that they have carved out a small victory. Christianity invented neither the concept nor the terminology for marriage. Most of us at HN rave all day long about how stupid it is when a compa…

Please don't paint all Christians with a broad brush. I, for one, support gay marriage, as do many others. Just say'n.

On the other hand, I also think it'd be completely valid to say that the government shouldn't be in the 'marriage' business at all (gay or straight) and it should only handle contracts -- aka civil unions. One could then parse "marriage" to be something reserved for whatever church/belief system/personal labeling one wishes to subscribe to. In the end, however, the government would treat all people equally, as it should.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#736

Post by dnr » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 11:13 PM UTC

victorhooi wrote: post #695

mkr-hn wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He had the opportunity to clarify which of these views he held. He chose to step down and leave us to speculate instead.

Well, actually, he comes across as the bigger person. He made a very public post saying, I'm happy to discuss my views - reach out to me and I'm happy to do it in private. The alternate would have either been a public spectacle, or farce - sorry, but the real world isn't quite like 4chan, and adults are able to sort things out without resorting to baying mobs.

He didn't say that at all. He said:

"If we are acquainted, have good-faith assumptions, and circumstances allow it, we can discuss 1:1 in person. Online communication doesn’t seem to work very well for potentially divisive issues. Getting to know each other works better in my experience."

I think it's clear that the vast majority of people that would like to discuss his views with him couldn't actually take him up on that offer, because they're not acquainted and couldn't meet in person.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#737

Post by username223 » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 11:14 PM UTC

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #411

ionforce wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you expect one side of the argument to adhere to reason when the other side clearly has none? What is the "reason" behind being against marriage equality?

The other side of the argument is: people should not be sacked because of their political opinions, even if I don't agree with them. I find this a rational and sustainable position. No one should be afraid of losing their job for voicing their opinion in a public debate. No one.

> No one should be afraid of losing their job for voicing their opinion in a public debate. No one.

Really? I guess there's no inherent problem with a homophobe or white supremacist coder, as long as he does his job and doesn't cause trouble at work. But a manager, who hires and fires, or a CEO, who is the public face of the company? It seems "rational and sustainable" to hold them to higher standards.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#738

Post by vacri » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 11:14 PM UTC

spikels wrote: post #147

This is sad. I wish I lived in a world where your personal beliefs, even very unpopular ones, could be kept separate from your professional life. Unfortunately we seem to need to put people in a single box.

It means that there is now a precedent for anti-gay folks to argue against homosexuals being employed against the principles of the company, even when those principles are not the core product. "This hardware company espouses conservative Christian values - you can't work here because of your opinions". Separation of personal opinion and professional life goes beyond CxO staff.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#739

Post by vacri » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 11:15 PM UTC

wdewind wrote: post #67

andrewcooke wrote: post #30

i've stood my ground for my beliefs when people were ridiculing me for doing so. it's a lonely position to be in. i didn't share eich's views here, but he's free to have them, and the reason for the problem is, ironically, the intolerance of other people (people forcing their "tolerance" down his throat). he has my respect. not for his view on gays. but for staying true to what he did. i think this is a shame.

Except he didn't stand his ground at all. He never once explained his beliefs. If he had done that I think people would've been a lot more tolerant of him. I don't think it had to end this way.

Except he didn't stand his ground at all. He never once explained his beliefs.

He did stand his ground in terms of what his position meant at Mozilla, explaining it on his own blog and doing interviews.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#740

Post by wpietri » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 11:15 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #209

dopamean wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you but I think the problem here is that being against gay marriage is more than just a "political view." Being for low taxes is a political view. Being for smaller government is a political view. Believing a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like other simply because of who they love is not a political view. It reads as extremely hateful and that makes people uncomforta…

I support legalizing gay marriage. But two things, first, supporting prop 8 does not mean you "believe a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like others." It means you don't believe that the government should recognize same sex marriages as marriages. There are a large gradient of views here, and on one extreme are the bigots who hate homosexuals and on the other there are people who simply have…

Putting money behind Prop 8 helped strip a civil right from gay people. It's technically true that proves nothing about Eich's beliefs. Heck, maybe it was Eich's personal Opposite Day. But does it matter? Even the bible says, "You will know them by their fruits," meaning that it's reasonable to judge people by what they do.

The pseudo-gotcha about tolerance is ridiculous, an accusation of hypocrisy based on a straw man. Gay marriage isn't about some mushy notion of tolerance. It's about civil rights, about equality before the law. As you point out, we don't yet know his views. This is about his actions.

And the concern about him as CEO also isn't about tolerance. It's about safety. Given that Eich has worked against the civil rights of gay people without explanation or apology, it's reasonable for gay employees and business partners to be concerned. When he was CTO, it wasn't as big a deal, because that was a technical role. But as boss of everybody, it's a different thing.

Personally, I don't think he should have left over his donation. I think he should have explained and apologized for his gay-hostile action before or as part of the CEO transition. Failing to recognize the problem in advance and then failing to deal with it quickly and forthrightly did make me strongly question his fitness to be CEO. Mozilla's CEO needs to lead and inspire people, and to adroitly handle the media, both traditional and social, adroitly. At that, so far, he's very much failed.