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Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

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Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#341

Post by calibraxis »

nostrademons wrote: post #199
danpalmer wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think 'integrity' in the face of an opinion that is becoming more and more unacceptable to hold in our culture is a good thing. Changing your views, and admitting you were wrong is the best thing you can do.

This line of reasoning is very troubling to me, because 20 years ago it was pretty much unacceptable in the U.S. to hold the opinion that gays were entitled to full legal rights, let alone the ability to marry. That changed only because some very courageous people stuck their neck out, weathered all the flack and negative personal repercussions towards themselves, and gradually made the point of "Why not?" I fully su…

The two aren't the same. On one hand, you have powerful white guys who sometimes don't get the exact CEO crown they want. (Aww...)

On the other, you have oppressed people who face horrors. Social movements who challenge the powerful. If you're black in the US, you're vulnerable to incarceration in the country which is the world's biggest jailer. If you're a woman, you're a target of violence and subordination. If you're not entirely heterosexual, you get abuse and humiliation heaped on you.

You mention history; would you compare Turing's fate to Eich's?

Anyway, nonprofits like Mozilla have serious problems if they're so top-down that your ability to contribute is limited by your distance to the CEO crown.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#342

Post by wdewind »

rossjudson wrote: post #228
wdewind wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except he didn't stand his ground at all. He never once explained his beliefs. If he had done that I think people would've been a lot more tolerant of him. I don't think it had to end this way.

Sure it did. The knives were out. Is it a requirement to explain what you believe? You can't just state it? I mean, there's no rational reason to oppose gay marriage, so attempting to rationalize it just comes off sounding stupid. Should we force a person to say stupid things? Maybe what you mean is to demand a conversation. Forcing someone to participate in a conversation doesn't seem right either. Does a person hav…

> Is it a requirement to explain what you believe? You can't just state it? I mean, there's no rational reason to oppose gay marriage, so attempting to rationalize it just comes off sounding stupid. Should we force a person to say stupid things?

Someone who is CEO of a very public, very community driven company? I think it's reasonable to expect him to participate in a conversation about his beliefs, especially when those beliefs do not seem to reflect those of the community he represents and the community is a core part of the business. That conversation seems to me to be a part of the business itself.

He doesn't have to believe certain things, but to be an effective CEO he has to have the community respect the integrity of his beliefs. He didn't even give them the opportunity to do so, and then complained that he was being witch hunted. All he had to do was say "No, actually I'm not a witch." Instead he said "I promise I wont speak any spells." This analogy is getting a bit silly, but you get my point.

> Does a person have the right to be close-minded?

Absolutely, and a person has the right to be close minded and run a company as well! This has NOTHING, let me repeat NOTHING, to do with Eich's rights.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#343

Post by Touche »

arrrg wrote: post #186
Touche wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about being a gracious victor. Yes, Eich was on the wrong side of history when he supported prop 8 those years ago. Yes, those who support gay marriage are "right" and history will show this. But the graceful thing to do when you're right is not to curb-stomp those who were wrong. It's not to rub it in their face. It's not to ruin their lives because they made a mistake. The graceful thing to do when you are rig…

Curb stomp? Rub it in their face? What are you talking about? Eich never said that he was wrong. That’s his prerogative – he can have that opinion – but I’m not sure why anyone would forgive someone who isn’t even asking for forgiveness. I’m really all for forgiving mistakes and being graceful. There is no reason to rub someone’s past mistakes in their face when they already admitted to making a mistake. Humans screw…

Ask yourself this. What is the victory here?

Is gay marriage, or equality in general, now going in a different direction because Eich was forced to resign?

Can you come up with any positive effect of this controversy?

If the answer is no, and I believe it is, then I don't think you can call any of this graceful.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#344

Post by [deleted] »

mhurron wrote: post #210
grn wrote: post #51

Personally I don't know what to think when organizations mix their core business (e.g. making a web browser) and politics (e.g. support for free speech). I'd like to see politics and business as separate as possible. What do you think?

A little difficult to do when part of what made the Mozilla Foundation what it is is supporting equality. It would be hard to see a Skinhead leading a Kosher brand for the same reason.

[deleted]

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#345

Post by SimHacker »

radicalbyte wrote: post #87
phillmv wrote: post #14

From the recode recap - http://recode.net/2014/04/03/mozilla-co-founder-brendan-eich... >“It’s clear that Brendan cannot lead Mozilla in this setting,” said Baker, who added that she would not and could not speak for Eich. “The ability to lead — particularly for the CEO — is fundamental to the role and that is not possible here.” The most damning aspect of this was their a) inability to predict this would be an issue…

> All he had to do was lie I may be diametrically opposed to Brendan's views, but he has earned my respect by being honest and sticking to his values.

You should respect him if he had the integrity to earnestly change his views. But he deserves absolutely no respect for sticking to views that are wrong and hateful that he refuses to even justify.

Just because you were a bigot 15 years ago doesn't mean you should respect bigots who haven't changed their opinions yet. You deserve some respect for changing your views, but Brendan only deserves contempt for failing to do that himself, not respect.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#346

Post by jcromartie »

eternalban wrote: post #284
nostrademons wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This line of reasoning is very troubling to me, because 20 years ago it was pretty much unacceptable in the U.S. to hold the opinion that gays were entitled to full legal rights, let alone the ability to marry. That changed only because some very courageous people stuck their neck out, weathered all the flack and negative personal repercussions towards themselves, and gradually made the point of "Why not?" I fully su…

> this line of reasoning is very troubling to me .. This entire affair is troubling. This individual's livelihood was affected because of his socio-political views and activities. Your 2nd paragraph correctly underlines the more important issue.

He was not stamping out widgets in a factory. He was supposed to be leading a diverse group of hackers and technologists at a bastion of future-looking/open culture.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#347

Post by crassus »

DangerousPie wrote: post #45

I am a strong supporter of gay marriage, but I have to say that I find this very unfortunate and worrying. Apparently many Mozilla supporters seem to think it is okay to bully a qualified person out of his job only for his political views, even if they had absolutely no effect on his qualification or his actions on the job. I can't help but feel like this campaign has done a lot more harm to him than his $1000 donati…

The tech community needs to rewatch "The Lives of Others". Making ideological purity a precondition to employment is fucking terrifying. I'm terrified.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#349

Post by thumbtackthief »

weixiyen wrote: post #58
phillmv wrote: post #14

From the recode recap - http://recode.net/2014/04/03/mozilla-co-founder-brendan-eich... >“It’s clear that Brendan cannot lead Mozilla in this setting,” said Baker, who added that she would not and could not speak for Eich. “The ability to lead — particularly for the CEO — is fundamental to the role and that is not possible here.” The most damning aspect of this was their a) inability to predict this would be an issue…

So the ideal CEO is someone who will lie about his beliefs the second it becomes inconvenient for him?

He could have at least honestly said that he wouldn't donate to such causes again. In the current climate, that would just be a foolish waste of money anyway.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#350

Post by Jtsummers »

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #238
pessimizer wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>even if they had absolutely no effect on his qualification or his actions on the job. There's no evidence of this either way, and the qualifications for being a CEO are nearly orthogonal to the qualifications for being a developer. He's clearly an outstanding developer; though javascript seems the product of a damaged mind, it's the water we all swim in. As a CEO, he chooses the direction of the company and manages…

What evidence is there that he's a "homophobe"? 7 million other Californians also voted for Prop 8. Does that make them all homophobes?

By today's hyperexagerrated language, yes.
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