Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO • Hacker News Board

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#671

Post by mkessy » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 9:32 PM UTC

xaa wrote: post #517

gagaga wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should we have been tolerant of racist people in the 50s and 60s? Was being in favor of segregation a viewpoint people should have respected?

As I said, I disagree with my father-in-law's views, just like I disagree with Eich's views. I have tried to talk my father-in-law out of them. But I certainly don't think employment should be conditional on having the right set of beliefs. That way lies madness -- it's the very reason we forbid employment discrimination based on religion, for example. How can you possibly determine which privately-held beliefs are "…

"Mozilla's mission has absolutely nothing to do with gay rights."

So it is not Mozilla's best interest to makes sure that all their employees are working in a comfortable work environment? If most of the people you are supposed to be leading feel uncomfortable with your views on human rights how is the company supposed to operate properly?

What if he said he opposed interracial marriage? Surely that's just a set of beliefs? Mozilla's mission has nothing to do with racial equality.

Your equating of economic policy beliefs and gay rights is quite telling.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#672

Post by Touche » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 9:34 PM UTC

Zigurd wrote: post #656

Touche wrote: post #128

This really saddens me. It is a black-mark on the gay rights movement. Eich made a mistake when he supported prop 8. History will clearly show this, like history has shown those who opposed interracial marriage were wrong. Being on the right-side of history isn't about stomping out those who opposed you when you finally win. It's not about retribution for past slights. Did we learn nothing from Nelson Mandela?

> Did we learn nothing from Nelson Mandela? You mean like overtly advocating violent overthrow of an oppressive government? Mandela was right. Just not in the way his sanitized image would lead one to expect.

I'm talking about what Mandela did after his cause was won (just as the cause of marriage equality is won in California, and being won across the country).

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#673

Post by smsm42 » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 9:36 PM UTC

bronson wrote: post #302

smsm42 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kind of confused why a software project has to have any values about gay marriage. Should they also have values about abortion, gun control, marijuana legalization, single-payer healthcare, contraceptive funding, stem-cell research, fracking? You know, we have a lot of hot button topics here and a lot of groups who would like nothing more than make national news by attaching themselves to something or somebody fa…

Because the project employs gay people, some of whom would be in a position to receive marriage benefits from said project.

So what? The project can also employ gun-owning people, marijuana-smoking people, birth-control-using people, healthcare-using people, etc. Those issues are hot issues because they interest a lot of people, and since big project employs a lot of people, it is inevitable that the intersection between people affected by the issue of the day and people working at big company is significant. And among them inevitably would be the people holding minority - or, in this case, unpopular majority opinion. If you refuse to interact with them, your circle of reference becomes very narrow indeed.

Once diversity meant surrounding oneself with people different from you and learning to deal with them. Now some people understand diversity as surrounding oneself with people looking superficially different but thinking virtually the same, within very near bounds. This is just sad and wrong.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#674

Post by Yoric » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 9:36 PM UTC

I see many people discussing freedom of speech and the right to be against gay marriage (or some metaphors thereof). While this is partially true, I believe that this is largely missing several points.

Brendan Eich made a private choice in a democratic vote. This private choice was leaked 4 years after the fact. Two more years later, this private choice prevents him from stepping into a new position. Brendan Eich went out of his way to avoid discussing this private choice, and still his privacy on the matter (and a few others) was turned into a public thing and put into the front of a mob. Not good.

Also, people seem to forget that Brendan Eich was (briefly) CEO of an organization that has as many ties and contributors in parts of the world where homosexuality is problematic, forbidden, or even punishable by death. While Brendan Eich's fall from position is a win for some, I can imagine the whole campaign having nasty and unwanted consequences for open-source communities (not just Mozilla's) around the world.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#675

Post by Yoric » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 9:38 PM UTC

stormbrew wrote: post #453

eternalban wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this line of reasoning is very troubling to me .. This entire affair is troubling. This individual's livelihood was affected because of his socio-political views and activities. Your 2nd paragraph correctly underlines the more important issue.

Can we have some perspective here? His livelihood has been at no point under threat. Unless you have some evidence that the CEO job was somehow keeping him from the poorhouse, this is just a ridiculous term to use here. He still works for Mozilla (as far as I can tell) and he almost certainly still has a significant say in how it's run through the shares he almost certainly has (I can't find any specifics on it in a…

> He still works for Mozilla (as far as I can tell)

Nope.

> he almost certainly still has a significant say in how

it's run through the shares he almost certainly has Shares? We're talking about Mozilla. It belongs 100% to the non-profit Mozilla Foundation.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#676

Post by mkessy » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 9:40 PM UTC

viggity wrote: post #322

matthewmacleod wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diversity as a concept cannot legitimately be defined to include intolerance as an attribute to be protected. Swap out "anti-gay-marriage" for "racist" or "anti-semitic" – it would be difficult to argue that calling for the resignation of an active campaigner against racial equality was "anti-diversity"; the same applies here.

I was against prop 8, it was stupid, but people act like it was going to throw members of the LGBT in prison or death camps or something.

Yeah the discrimination wasn't that bad, I mean those gays should just suck it up it's not like they were getting sent to an internment camp! Do they really need to get married anyway?

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#677

Post by zemo » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 9:45 PM UTC

hkphooey wrote: post #660

zemo wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the reality is that at the end of the day, Mozilla is a civil rights organization. Although it is ostensibly a technology company, their actual agenda is deeply rooted in civil rights, and Brendan Eich's Proposition 8 donation is antithetical to civil rights.

Firstly, Mozilla is a technology organization, not a political one. Secondly, is marriage really a civil right? If you say yes, explain why campaigners aren't fighting to allow brother to marry sister, mother to marry son, or polygamous marriages which have a long history in many cultures? I think there are many people who would agree that Eich should not have been forced out for his views and donation, and those who…

>Secondly, is marriage really a civil right?

Yes.

>If you say yes, explain why campaigners aren't fighting to allow brother to marry sister, mother to marry son, or polygamous marriages which have a long history in many cultures?

I think those rights should exist and I'd be shocked if there aren't organizations fighting for the legalization of polygamy. The incestuous marriages you mentioned are probably not represented because those practices are on the one hand, taboo, and on the other hand, practiced by such a small minority that they're unable to materialize a voice.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#678

Post by scintill76 » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 9:48 PM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #183

akerl_ wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have considered him a worse person if he'd done that. I disagree with his opinions on marriage, but he has the right to have those opinions, and to provide support for causes he believes in. I'm not shocked the he is stepping down, or that others in the organization appear to have applied substantial pressure on him to do so, but it makes me sad. Their statements about supporting freedom of speech are hollow:…

Ironically, though, his opinion was supported by the majority in that California election: 7 million to 6.4 million in favor of Prop 8. I guess if they consider any other candidates for CEO from California, they'll have to ask them how they voted.

> I guess if they consider any other candidates for CEO from California, they'll have to ask them how they voted.

Interesting. The difference between which box you check, and giving money to influence other people to check a certain box. The privacy of the former is a nearly-sacred privilege, while the latter is not allowed to be private. And I do tend to agree with campaign finance disclosure, but the double-standard is interesting. To be consistent, will we have to make all voting records public?

Would there be outrage if there were political questionnaires for employment/promotion like this? If proof of lying was found, would there be more outrage over the lie; or over violating privacy to find out about the lie?

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#679

Post by byuu » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 9:48 PM UTC

gfosco wrote: post #77

Oculus wrote: post #6

I'm not sure how I feel about this one. On the one hand, Brendan Eich had some beliefs that were against Mozilla's core values, but on the other hand we just showed that when a mob on the Internet wants something - they get it. It's scary because this mob has global reach, unlimited power, but isn't always right.

Unfortunately I think what this encourages is being less genuine.. hiding your personal feelings when they go against the current tide. Was the problem truly that he felt this way, or that he publicly+financially felt that way? If there was no public record of his position, there'd be no controversy. I completely disagree with his position, but I don't think shutting him up or vilifying him is the answer.

The problem is that it ceased to be his personal opinion when he donated money to and voted to strip other people of their rights (while keeping those rights for himself) under force of law. He directly contributed to preventing some of his very own employees from being able to marry in their home state of California. A right they had previously enjoyed.

If he held to his own beliefs, but allowed others to have their own beliefs and live their lives how they wanted, I sincerely doubt this would have been such a big issue.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#680

Post by eevee » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 9:49 PM UTC

petea wrote: post #466

Crito wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobodies' right to have different viewpoints is being taken away. Nobodies' right to donate to political causes is being taken away. The only people in this entire story that were/are trying to take away the rights of others were the people who pushed for Prop 8. The right to support legislation like Prop 8 remains intact. The right to not be criticized by others for doing so has never existed in the first place. The…

It seems like most are ok with harassment and discrimination against Eich simply citing exercise of free speech. But if one-tenth of what happened to Eich had happened to someone with different sexuality or female, people would cry harassment and discrimination. Why is it ok for Eich to get huge backlashes, harassments and character assassination? I fully support same sex marriage, but I feel like treating Eich like…

Free speech does not mean, and has never meant, freedom from social consequence. The Constitution does not say that you can do and say whatever you want and other people can't have opinions about it.

Eich paid good money in an attempt to restrict how people in Mozilla's home state live their lives — some of them even Mozilla employees. He expressed no regret for doing so, then became CEO of Mozilla, a company that virtually defines itself by freedom and inclusion.

There were myriad ways he could've attempted to resolve this, and he did precisely none of them. That he would rather give up the job entirely speaks volumes about what he finds important.