Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO • Hacker News Board

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#531

Post by nilkn » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:33 PM UTC

Crito wrote: post #252

nostrademons wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This line of reasoning is very troubling to me, because 20 years ago it was pretty much unacceptable in the U.S. to hold the opinion that gays were entitled to full legal rights, let alone the ability to marry. That changed only because some very courageous people stuck their neck out, weathered all the flack and negative personal repercussions towards themselves, and gradually made the point of "Why not?" I fully su…

Nobodies' right to have different viewpoints is being taken away. Nobodies' right to donate to political causes is being taken away. The only people in this entire story that were/are trying to take away the rights of others were the people who pushed for Prop 8. The right to support legislation like Prop 8 remains intact. The right to not be criticized by others for doing so has never existed in the first place. The…

I think you're dismissing what has happened too lightly. The real issue here is mob mentality, and you're underestimating the ways in which it can be dangerous and insidious.

People aren't taking this seriously because in this case they disagree with Eich's opinion, so they feel it's all okay. They're letting that blind them.

What if Eich actually had the "right" opinion? And this is hypothetical at this point--I'm not talking about gay rights anymore. Suppose you are an oracle and you know that the mob was wrong rather than right and Eich was right rather than wrong. Don't fool yourself into thinking that things would be different. They wouldn't, and this has caused extraordinary difficulty in righting many wrongs of the past, including slavery. It can severely impede the democratic process because people are afraid to hold dissenting opinions--not due to legal ramifications, but social ones.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#532

Post by ewoodrich » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:33 PM UTC

xaa wrote: post #431

My father-in-law is a high-level official in the "Alliance Defending Freedom", which is essentially the conservative counterpart to the ACLU, providing legal advice to conservative causes. For years, he's been telling me about the "gay liberal agenda", which, to him, was not just about promoting gay rights, but also about silencing any freedom of speech advocating opposing viewpoints. I always pooh-poohed him and gen…

I fail to see how a CEO facing criticism for personal political contributions to be evidence of some sort of "gay liberal agenda". He has every right to donate to Prop 8 or whatever cause he likes. He has every right to vocally advocate his position.

He does not have a right to be the public facing chief executive of a private organization. I would see no issue with a pro-gay rights CEO being forced to leave Hobby Lobby or something of that nature. It's not censorship to be unable to represent an organization that is expected to have a certain political/social/cultural alignment.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#533

Post by Aloisius » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:33 PM UTC

Dirlewanger wrote: post #326

username223 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, getting ousted as CEO for unrepentant bigotry? I'm not that scared.

And this "unrepentant bigotry" directly affected how many peoples' lives? No one's?

The thousands of gay couples who wanted to get married but couldn't because of donations like his? The denial of rights of gay couples who were married before prop 8?

There are actual people who have been denied inheritance, denied the right to visit their partner in the hospital, denied the ability to go their loved one's funeral by their family because of prop 8.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#534

Post by filmgirlcw » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:33 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #199

danpalmer wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think 'integrity' in the face of an opinion that is becoming more and more unacceptable to hold in our culture is a good thing. Changing your views, and admitting you were wrong is the best thing you can do.

This line of reasoning is very troubling to me, because 20 years ago it was pretty much unacceptable in the U.S. to hold the opinion that gays were entitled to full legal rights, let alone the ability to marry. That changed only because some very courageous people stuck their neck out, weathered all the flack and negative personal repercussions towards themselves, and gradually made the point of "Why not?" I fully su…

I had a longer response, but I'll try to condense it down. I understand what you're saying, and as a supporter of free speech (which includes unpopular speech), I generally agree with your point. Still, I can't quite see the parallels between the two scenarios.

This isn't a situation where he's sticking his neck out and weathering flack of negative personal repercussions to achieve a point, at least, not yet. If Brendan wants to use this experience to further voice his support against gay marriage, he can certainly do that.

But thus far, Brendan has gone out of his way to NOT discuss the unpopular opinion he holds -- he hasn't even explained why he feels the way he feels.

It's sort of hard to draw an analogy between someone who stuck their neck out and said "not supporting LGBT rights is wrong and bigoted and I'm going to talk about it, even if it means losing my job. And I'm going to continue talking about it until things change." and someone who says "yes, I have to confirm I gave money to this cause b/c it's public record, but I refuse to explain or defend my position, stop asking me about it, it doesn't matter."

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#535

Post by macspoofing » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:33 PM UTC

gum_ina_package wrote: post #88

I honestly feel like Brendan is the victim here. He might have religious or moral views on gay marriage that some of us don't agree with, but being forced to step down as CEO because of those views... well that's something I don't think any of his critics should be proud of.

On the other hand, those that didn't agree with those views were free to boycott and criticize Mozilla. Mozilla Foundation was also free to live with those consequences or decide that they didn't want their brand to be associated or muddled by its CEO's accidentally public position on a very sensitive topic. My view: It's a shame that Eich decided to stand his ground on this issue. It's a real shame that he felt so strongly about his position that he sacrificed his job for it. I wish he would have found something more important to stand his ground over.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#536

Post by tdicola » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:34 PM UTC

phillmv wrote: post #14

From the recode recap - http://recode.net/2014/04/03/mozilla-co-founder-brendan-eich... >“It’s clear that Brendan cannot lead Mozilla in this setting,” said Baker, who added that she would not and could not speak for Eich. “The ability to lead — particularly for the CEO — is fundamental to the role and that is not possible here.” The most damning aspect of this was their a) inability to predict this would be an issue…

Yeah I couldn't believe the last interview he did where he basically hand waved the whole controversy away and effectively said if people make a big deal it will just hurt Firefox.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#537

Post by wyclif » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:34 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #398

wyclif wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A software developer and friend of mine wrote this just now, upon hearing the news. I thought I'd share it here because I thought it was apt: Mozilla believes both in equality and freedom of speech. Equality is necessary for meaningful speech. And you need free speech to fight for equality. Figuring out how to stand for both at the same time can be hard. You also need free speech to discuss what equality means, but a…

You also need free speech to discuss what equality means, but apparently that is no longer possible; our culture-makers have now decided there is a univocal conception of equality that must be imposed on everyone. This is a gross misreading of the situation. It's actually pretty simple: - Eitch is appointed to important, visible community leadership position - His personal views are incompatible with those of the org…

Call it left-wing anti-liberalism: the idea, captured by Herbert Marcuse in his 1965 essay“Repressive Tolerance,” that social justice demands curbs on freedom of expression. “[I]t is possible to define the direction in which prevailing institutions, policies, opinions would have to be changed in order to improve the chance of a peace which is not identical with cold war and a little hot war, and a satisfaction of needs which does not feed on poverty, oppression, and exploitation,” he wrote. “Consequently, it is also possible to identify policies, opinions, movements which would promote this chance, and those which would do the opposite. Suppression of the regressive ones is a prerequisite for the strengthening of the progressive ones.”

Note here both the belief that correct opinions can be dispassionately identified, and the blithe confidence in the wisdom of those empowered to do the suppressing. This kind of thinking is only possible at certain moments: when liberalism seems to have failed but the right is not yet in charge. At such times, old-fashioned liberal values like free speech and robust, open debate seem like tainted adjuncts of an oppressive system, and it’s still possible for radicals to believe that the ideas suppressed as hateful won’t be their own.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/179160/cancelcolbert-and-retur...

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#538

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:34 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #199

danpalmer wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think 'integrity' in the face of an opinion that is becoming more and more unacceptable to hold in our culture is a good thing. Changing your views, and admitting you were wrong is the best thing you can do.

This line of reasoning is very troubling to me, because 20 years ago it was pretty much unacceptable in the U.S. to hold the opinion that gays were entitled to full legal rights, let alone the ability to marry. That changed only because some very courageous people stuck their neck out, weathered all the flack and negative personal repercussions towards themselves, and gradually made the point of "Why not?" I fully su…

[deleted]

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#539

Post by jherdman » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:34 PM UTC

xaa wrote: post #431

My father-in-law is a high-level official in the "Alliance Defending Freedom", which is essentially the conservative counterpart to the ACLU, providing legal advice to conservative causes. For years, he's been telling me about the "gay liberal agenda", which, to him, was not just about promoting gay rights, but also about silencing any freedom of speech advocating opposing viewpoints. I always pooh-poohed him and gen…

Those demanding Eich step down aren't "silencing [his] freedom of speech", they're noting that Mozilla's culture of inclusivity is not congruent with his viewpoint and, as such, isn't fit to lead the organization in the capacity of a CEO.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#540

Post by tommorris » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:34 PM UTC

Borogove wrote: post #115

rossjudson wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claiming there's no longer any freedom of speech is rather foolish. This is about proportionality of response. When is it OK to take direct, personal, and extreme action against an individual? Did Eich's conduct rise to that level?

What extreme action was taken?

Twittering mostly.