Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO • Hacker News Board

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#511

Post by tommorris » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:27 PM UTC

eternalban wrote: post #284

nostrademons wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This line of reasoning is very troubling to me, because 20 years ago it was pretty much unacceptable in the U.S. to hold the opinion that gays were entitled to full legal rights, let alone the ability to marry. That changed only because some very courageous people stuck their neck out, weathered all the flack and negative personal repercussions towards themselves, and gradually made the point of "Why not?" I fully su…

> this line of reasoning is very troubling to me .. This entire affair is troubling. This individual's livelihood was affected because of his socio-political views and activities. Your 2nd paragraph correctly underlines the more important issue.

If I walked into my office tomorrow and told people that I think women aren't humans, abused some racial minorities, my livelihood would be affected because of my socio-political views.

And I'm okay with that.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

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Post by sp332 » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:27 PM UTC

throwaway137 wrote: post #121

matthewmacleod wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

on the other hand we just showed that when a mob on the Internet wants something - they get it. I don't think that this follows. In this particular case, someone was promoted to a role which many felt was incompatible with his personal views; they made that known, and the person in question stepped down. That's kind of how things should work in a community enterprise. That said, I understand he's received wildly disp…

That said, I understand he's received wildly disproportionate abuse, like death threats. It must have been difficult for him to receive the same treatment as every sufficiently notable LGBT individual.

Yes, it probably was. And it's just as sad.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

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Post by 3am » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:27 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #415

ceautery wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, when your partner dies and the State doesn't recognize your marriage, you don't get survivor benefits. It's conceivable to be with a partner for most of your life, and then lose the house you lived in to your partner's bigot family. That's something to feel strongly about. That said, death threats are always disproportional, and I think we can all agree that however you feel about Eich and his contribution, the…

> Well, when your partner dies and the State doesn't recognize your marriage, you don't get survivor benefits. The lack of survivor benefits is ridiculous. But it is (or could and should be) completely orthogonal to how government defines the term "marriage."

Well, it's the world we live in, not as it should be. The government definition of marriage and the rights it confers (not just survivor benefits, but substantial tax/program eligibility economic advantages, among others) are real and should not be withheld on the basis of sexual orientation. And the priority should be addessing this clear violation of the 14th amendment before addressing the relationship between the religious ritual of marriage and the nondenominational legal relationship of marriage that regrettably shares the same name.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

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Post by michaelsbradley » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:28 PM UTC

jcromartie wrote: post #433

michaelsbradley wrote: post #299

I'm saddened by this development... not terribly surprised, but saddened to the point that I got a sick feeling in my stomach when I read the headline. In all seriousness, should this be seen as a kind of warning/signal? That is, if you take the moral teachings of your church seriously enough to act on them in the context of democratic processes and/or public discourse, then you need not aspire to, apply for or expec…

There is no separation. Secular vs. sacred is an artificial divide, because every action has consequences in reality. Mr. Eich here did not simply take seriously some moral warnings, he acted on them in the form of donations to political organizations which worked to enact laws which affect real people's real lives. When your job involves leadership of a large publicly visible organization, you are going to want to b…

I said nothing about him being owed a job, nor did I mention anything about a separation.

In fact, the "everything is connected" principle is exactly what would motivate, say, a serious-minded Catholic to vote, donate and set public example in such a way as to promote the Catholic Church's social and moral doctrines. That is to say, "everything is connected; these aren't just truths for me, but truths and norms that deviated from on large scales will lead to societal decay, proliferation of evil, and everyone will suffer all the more. Therefore I will act, vote and speak publicly so as to see these truths reflected in laws and policies that will affect society around me, in my own time and for generations to come."

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

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Post by dasil003 » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:28 PM UTC

crassus wrote: post #283

dasil003 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the community has pressured him to step down because he expressed an opinion not held by the majority. That's not true. The fact that the majority believe the idea was necessary for the pressure to be applied, but it is not why the pressure was applied. The pressure was applied because his views trample on others' rights, and equal rights is philosophically closely tied with the entire mission of an organization li…

You can turn any political belief into "someone's rights". There are people who believe abortion is a woman's right, and others that believe legal abortion is an unprecedented holocaust. I believe we should be able to work together and respect each other while we work that out. This is enforcing an ideological litmus test on the industry, policing people's internal beliefs. It is terrifying.

Sure, the world is not black and white, you can always twist things around and mince words to support any viewpoint. But you picked a bad example, because the argument with abortion is that the unborn baby has rights too.

The only way you can say gay marriage violates someone's rights is to say that people have the right to not be offended, or the right to hate people who are different from them. For all the contortions that people will make on this issue, it's fundamentally about fear and hate and nothing more. Abortion is a much more nuanced issue.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

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Post by twoodfin » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:28 PM UTC

cek994 wrote: post #454

twoodfin wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand why he gets a pass: He probably was only publicly against it in 2008 in order to win an election, and when it was politically convenient he had a "change of heart" and has repented. What I can't understand is why anyone who espouses the view that opposition to gay marriage is akin to the most heinous racial bigotry could possibly have voted for Barack Obama in 2008. I'm a pretty reliable GOP voter, b…

Opposing something right because it's politically convenient isn't any more ethically defensible than opposing something you truly disagree with. You, as liberals tend to do, are giving Obama a pass -- he can't not do the right thing, by your logic. I suspect that many Republicans nominally against gay marriage are privately for it, but the political ramifications for saying so would be much graver for an older, whit…

Politicians say one thing while believing something else all the time. It's almost a qualification for the job.

I don't care about that (much). 'Twas always thus...

I'm pointing out that there are surely things 2008 Candidate Obama could have said and positions he could have taken that would have disqualified him in the eyes of many of the folks here, even if they suspected he didn't really mean them. I'd like to hope some of those would include expressing support for racial segregation or opposing interracial marriage. But many in this discussion are claiming that BE's 2008 opposition to gay marriage is morally indistinguishable from support for racial segregation or opposition to interracial marriage, and that he should be judged accordingly. Then how can they square that with a vote for Senator Obama in 2008?

The analogy with the Civil Rights Movement to end racial discrimination absolutely has some force behind it, but I don't think making that analogy ends the debate over how to treat folks on the other side.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

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Post by xaa » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:28 PM UTC

gagaga wrote: post #497

xaa wrote: post #431

My father-in-law is a high-level official in the "Alliance Defending Freedom", which is essentially the conservative counterpart to the ACLU, providing legal advice to conservative causes. For years, he's been telling me about the "gay liberal agenda", which, to him, was not just about promoting gay rights, but also about silencing any freedom of speech advocating opposing viewpoints. I always pooh-poohed him and gen…

Should we have been tolerant of racist people in the 50s and 60s? Was being in favor of segregation a viewpoint people should have respected?

As I said, I disagree with my father-in-law's views, just like I disagree with Eich's views. I have tried to talk my father-in-law out of them.

But I certainly don't think employment should be conditional on having the right set of beliefs. That way lies madness -- it's the very reason we forbid employment discrimination based on religion, for example. How can you possibly determine which privately-held beliefs are "too bad" for you to deserve being employed.

Also, Mozilla's mission has absolutely nothing to do with gay rights. Arguments based on "freedom" and "openness" are so highly metaphorical as to be meaningless, as those words mean different things to different people.

As another example, I think the conservative approach to economics is disastrous and would be ruinous if adopted. But do I therefore think that conservatives shouldn't be hired in jobs totally unrelated to economic policy? Of course not.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

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Post by homulilly » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:28 PM UTC

fleitz wrote: post #407

homulilly wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being gay and being a bigot are not comparable, that's insane.

I think what he's getting at is that you shouldn't suffer work consequences for opinions that you hold outside of work. Alternatively, maybe we can decide on a set of American values and we can investigate and blackball people who hold unamerican views.

Things like this are about ethics, not "American Values" or any cultural norms. It used to be the cultural norm to be a white supremacist but that position as never actually been ethical.

Additionally, in this specific case it's worth noting that the Mozilla Foundation and its subsidiary the Mozilla Corporation are largely political organizations and someone who holds such obviously bigoted views is pretty clearly unqualified to lead an organization who's goals are freedom and openness.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

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Post by blisterpeanuts » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:28 PM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #447

peteretep wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does that make them all homophobes? What's your alternative explanation?

My explanation? That they were in favor of what the Proposition actually was, i.e. insertion of the following language into the state constitution: "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California" I don't think a supporter of such a clause is automatically a "homophobe". It might just be that the proponents did not wish to make same-sex marriage an institutional reality. That's not an in…

@peteretep >>>Out of interest, had the language been "only marriage between a man and a woman of the same color is valid or recognized in California", would you have said supporters of it were racistsI don't know what I would say about that, but that's not a true analogy except in the political sense, certainly not in the biological or anthropological sense.

Since you bring up racism, though, it should be noted that 70% of African-American voters in California supported Prop 8.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

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Post by openjck » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:29 PM UTC

broflosup wrote: post #201

adrianlmm wrote: post #70

Well, I won't use Firefox anymore and I won't use anything related to Mozilla, I can't tolerate this injustice.

I'm kind of conflicted. On one hand, there's Chrome, but it's used by Google to help US government spy on you. On another hand, there's Mozilla. Both good browsers but are being developed by pretty evil people.

Mozilla employee here.

Please remember that Mozilla is not one person. Mozilla is a global community of people, staff and volunteers, working to protect and care for the web in a way that no other group of people can. We are not perfect, but we are generally good people, and we are trying our hardest to do good, selfless work.

Be angry about Brendan, but please do not let your anger cross over to the project itself. Mozilla is about so much more than one executive.