Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO • Hacker News Board

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#441

Post by jessedhillon » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:12 PM UTC

dasil003 wrote: post #150

akerl_ wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have considered him a worse person if he'd done that. I disagree with his opinions on marriage, but he has the right to have those opinions, and to provide support for causes he believes in. I'm not shocked the he is stepping down, or that others in the organization appear to have applied substantial pressure on him to do so, but it makes me sad. Their statements about supporting freedom of speech are hollow:…

> the community has pressured him to step down because he expressed an opinion not held by the majority. That's not true. The fact that the majority believe the idea was necessary for the pressure to be applied, but it is not why the pressure was applied. The pressure was applied because his views trample on others' rights, and equal rights is philosophically closely tied with the entire mission of an organization li…

Yes the framing is intentionally naïve, as if the minority-ness of the opinion is why he was rejected. If he was a vegan I doubt anyone would give a shit despite that belief being way more unpopular than opposition to gay marriage. The key is not that his belief was unpopular, it's that he held a belief widely regarded as bigoted and unjust. He then went on to enact those beliefs by proxy, through financial contributions.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#442

Post by sp332 » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:12 PM UTC

jcromartie wrote: post #328

nostrademons wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This line of reasoning is very troubling to me, because 20 years ago it was pretty much unacceptable in the U.S. to hold the opinion that gays were entitled to full legal rights, let alone the ability to marry. That changed only because some very courageous people stuck their neck out, weathered all the flack and negative personal repercussions towards themselves, and gradually made the point of "Why not?" I fully su…

You could also say that it was pretty much unacceptable to support women's suffrage or be against slavery in certain times and places. But, the thing is, these ideas have trajectories. The idea that slavery is wrong or women should have the right to vote never got less accepted over time.

This is very wrong. Various cultures have had different systems of slavery - some better, some worse - and vastly different views of women's civil rights or participation in society.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#443

Post by dnr » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:12 PM UTC

Dewie wrote: post #297

dnr wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One person losing his job, compared to millions of people not being able to marry the person they love? Even if you figure that $1000 as a fraction of the money raised by the campaign, you're still talking about significant emotional harm to hundreds or thousands of people directly affected within CA. But the effects are actually much greater, because the CA decision was not made in a vacuum: it affected public senti…

> But the effects are actually much greater, because the CA decision was not made in a vacuum: it affected public sentiment all over the country, and the world. Who holds up America as an example/ideal of socially progressive policies? People who are waiting for Americans to lead the way with socially liberal laws might be waiting for a good while.

As the most populous state, with a reputation for being fairly liberal (but of course that's only the coastal areas), and one of the earlier states to try to address the issue through a referendum, CA was definitely looked to as a bellweather on the issue by the rest of the US.

Of course, the relationship between the US and the rest of the world is totally different.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#444

Post by ciupicri » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:12 PM UTC

ceautery wrote: post #298

eif034 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burden of proof is on you to prove that "every sufficiently notable LGBT individual" has received "wildly disproportionate abuse, like death threats".

I don't know that there's a list of famous people including sexual orientation and whether they've received death threats or not. However: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6239098.stm - 17% of UK gay students report receiving death threats http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2008/victims.html - 17% of hate crimes in the US (2008) are related to sexual orientation (mainly against male homosexuals). I think it would be fair to extrapo…

Nevertheless throwaway137 said "every", not something around 17%.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#445

Post by jackmaney » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:12 PM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #238

pessimizer wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>even if they had absolutely no effect on his qualification or his actions on the job. There's no evidence of this either way, and the qualifications for being a CEO are nearly orthogonal to the qualifications for being a developer. He's clearly an outstanding developer; though javascript seems the product of a damaged mind, it's the water we all swim in. As a CEO, he chooses the direction of the company and manages…

What evidence is there that he's a "homophobe"? 7 million other Californians also voted for Prop 8. Does that make them all homophobes?

Yes. Yes, it does.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#446

Post by yeukhon » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:12 PM UTC

danpalmer wrote: post #111

nostrademons wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It speaks a lot to his integrity that he didn't. Would you rather have a CEO who says one thing in public and then goes and does another thing surreptitiously, or one who stands up for his beliefs even when they're unpopular?

I don't think 'integrity' in the face of an opinion that is becoming more and more unacceptable to hold in our culture is a good thing. Changing your views, and admitting you were wrong is the best thing you can do.

becoming more and more unacceptable to hold in our culture is a good thing.

So it isn't accepted by everyone yet. So why should he or me or you ever change opinion because majority says so?

If majority says so, what's the point of minority opinion? You don't have to agree that gay deserve equality, but once the law is written, you have to accept that the gay is protected under the law.

Until all the states accepts to give marriage equality to all, the expectation of everyone to accept is hard. You don't have to agree with my disagreement in order to accept that we can agree to disagree.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#447

Post by blisterpeanuts » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:13 PM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #351

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence is there that he's a "homophobe"? 7 million other Californians also voted for Prop 8. Does that make them all homophobes?

> Does that make them all homophobes? What's your alternative explanation?

My explanation? That they were in favor of what the Proposition actually was, i.e. insertion of the following language into the state constitution:

"only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California"

I don't think a supporter of such a clause is automatically a "homophobe". It might just be that the proponents did not wish to make same-sex marriage an institutional reality. That's not an infringement of gay rights so much as an expansion of gay rights.

Note that I'm not taking a personal stand either way, but I do dispute that it was correct to demonize Eich (and millions of others) who support the traditional definition of marriage. There's no evidence that Eich or anyone else sought to actively discriminate against gays.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#448

Post by saryant » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:13 PM UTC

bruceb wrote: post #372

sanxiyn wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this showed Eich is insufficiently dedicated to Mozilla's mission. If Eich believed he can help Mozilla's mission by being a CEO (otherwise, why bother?), is lying about an issue more important than how much you could help Mozilla's mission? Utilitarian 101. On the other hand, Eich probably didn't make such utilitarian calculation, and followed "do not lie" deontology instead. Pity.

dumb question alert. Why are some replies so light you can barley read them? Is this something new on HN?

Lots and lots of downvotes. It's not new, threads like this just attract more downvotes than usual.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#449

Post by oneeyedpigeon » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:13 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #432

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"sanitized to the extreme" "Hold a view that isn't mainstream" We're not talking about slightly controversial views, 'colorful' language, or a 'racy' past here, we're talking about out-and-out homophobia, wanting people to be treated as lesser humans simply because of who they love. Please, that is a LONG way from being 'sanitized to the extreme'.

Personally I think your characterization is hyperbole. There are a lot of rational reasons to oppose gay marriage (if you allow one their irrational premises). Opposing the state recognizing gay marriage is far from "treating people as lesser humans".

If there were no state benefits for those married, of course. But there are. Both opposing gay marriage AND not opposing that benefit system is patently discriminatory - how could it be anything else? It is saying 'there is no way you are going to get the same benefits as other people, because of whom you happen to love'.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#450

Post by macspoofing » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 8:13 PM UTC

phillmv wrote: post #14

From the recode recap - http://recode.net/2014/04/03/mozilla-co-founder-brendan-eich... >“It’s clear that Brendan cannot lead Mozilla in this setting,” said Baker, who added that she would not and could not speak for Eich. “The ability to lead — particularly for the CEO — is fundamental to the role and that is not possible here.” The most damning aspect of this was their a) inability to predict this would be an issue…

>The most damning aspect of this was their a) inability to predict this would be an issue and b) their inability to deal with it once it did.

I'll grant you a) but with respect to b) there was nothing they could have really done once Eich decided to stand his ground. Who would have thought that Eich felt so strongly on this topic that he was willing to sacrifice his CEO position and possibly his future at Mozilla. He never came close to either apologizing for his actions or publicly supporting gay marriage. He really really is against gay-marriage, that's his thing.

>All he had to do was lie...

Personally, I'd rather he not lie.