A nation of slaves • Hacker News Board

Re: A nation of slaves

#161

Post by mrow84 » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 6:09 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #147

pessimizer wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there's little to no positive connection between who does the hard work and who gets rewarded for it. Nobody in China nor other country is working their ass off to make cheap stuff for developed countries. They're working their asses off to feed themselves and their families. The effort: very high. The value: not so much for them. I get what you're saying, but covering the effort in valor and moral superiority as…

The value: not so much for them. How is a "dramatic reduction in poverty" not of much value? http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/stats-on-human-rights/sta...

I think pessimizer was saying that the relative return to the labour at the bottom end is low.

It is like (to be hyperbolic) living a life of luxury, but on giving the starving man who labours for you a bit of food, suggesting that that is ample reward for his efforts, because of how much value that bit of food has for him. Then, you can top that off by saying that it doesn't matter how much food he produces for you, it isn't of much value because you have so much already.

People reject the labour theory of value, probably correctly in fundamental terms, but the marginal and subjective theories of value both seem to promote (and justify) this kind of structural inequality.

An example from the relatively recent NPR Planet Money t-shirt project [0] suggests that for that product just under 12% of the cost (6% of the sale price) went to the people who made the yarn, cut the cloth, and sewed it all together.

[0] http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/12/13/250747279/episode-...

Re: A nation of slaves

#162

Post by angersock » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 6:14 PM UTC

raldi wrote: post #120

angersock wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? That's quite silly. On the internet/TV for example, you are failing to take into account the spread of tech and efficiency. We can have factories produce TVs automatically, and internet infrastructure doesn't require a huge number of people to keep it running--and most of them, I wager, would be happy to keep doing what they're doing, because it's fun . As for fancy restaurants or organic groceries...that's jus…

I think you misinterpreted my comment as if it were about what "we" as a society could do, but I meant it as a comment about what any of us as an individual could do.

Ah, thank you for the clarification.

Re: A nation of slaves

#163

Post by erichocean » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 6:20 PM UTC

mjmahone17 wrote: post #14

One of the biggest views I see in my parents and grandparents: work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure. This is really hard to respond to, especially with people who have spent 50 years working with this mindset, because they feel "invalidated" or "worthless" if their life's worth isn't measured by their work output. I don't think that's necessarily a…

> If you have no choice but to work or be discarded, then, when the value you can provide via work is less than that required to maintain your life, you have no choice but to attempt to indenture yourself. And failing that, you're truly, completely fucked.

Work or be discarded? Really? Most people have, you know, other people in their lives. Hell, 20% of the country at any given time is children, and they don't work at all. Somehow, miraculously, they aren't just discarded.

The same is true with old people (i.e. parents). This world you imagine is a complete fantasy, and has never, ever, anywhere been the case.

Re: A nation of slaves

#164

Post by Killah911 » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 6:21 PM UTC

Dewie wrote: post #123

Killah911 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life is meaningless to you... That's a whole another can of worms but a very interesting one nevertheless. While watching a documentary recently, I realized that my existential angst wasn't nearly as pronounced or debilitating when I was struggling to live day to day. Work sucked, really sucked, to the point that some days I'd almost wish I'd rather fallen gravely ill or died rather than go to work. But that was only…

> Life is meaningless to you... That's a whole another can of worms but a very interesting one nevertheless. Can of worms ? You seem to imply that I find it depressing, while really it's quite the opposite. Spare me your projections.

Actually, meant to imply that your claim is your opinion & the debate on that is another can of worms. I actually found your comment quite insightful. I was hoping to get your opinion or those of others here about whether a world with more free time is necessarily "better" than one where people toil (perhaps needlessly) but are "happier".

People imposing their views on others inherently implies they think they are better and smarter than the other, and in general I have found reason to distrust such people. Not saying you are such a person, but I assumed you might agree that your viewpoint of life is meaningless is absolute or the "truth" just as the inverse is not. Most smart people can/should determine that themselves. My comment was not meant to be an ad hominem attack, apologies if it came off that way.

Re: A nation of slaves

#165

Post by mitochondrion » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 6:22 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #140

atmosx wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This man[1] didn't work much in his life, he mocked Alexander the Great[2] and it's pretty much famous for his views almost 2500 years after his death. It's quite an accomplishment given the fact that he chose to live as poor man in a very rich society. Aristotle also has stated that More than 3 hours work per day, equals slavery and I'm pretty sure Socrates would have argued that If you don't want to work you should…

Aristotle also has stated that More than 3 hours work per day, equals slavery Yes, and he was perfectly happy to live comfortably by making use of the products of slaves' work. and I'm pretty sure Socrates would have argued that If you don't want to work you should not be working. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't, since he, like Aristotle, was perfectly happy to live comfortably by making use of the products of slaves' wo…

If Zeus himself descends from Mount Olympus and says to you,

"I am going to reestablish slavery in society. I will select slaves by lottery, and when it's all over most of the population will be held in the bonds of slavery. No one will remember a time before slavery. It will be as though it has always existed. I will never let slavery be abolished again.

I give you, and you alone, the choice to be free or enslaved."

Which do you choose?

Re: A nation of slaves

#166

Post by erichocean » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 6:26 PM UTC

kemayo wrote: post #152

drcode wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, I created an infographic recently that teaches people all the details they need to know about basic income: http://i.imgur.com/eRuO1ix.png

Hardly. Communism is a system in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs. (It's more complicated than that, but y'know...) A Basic Income policy is totally Socialism, which is a system in which the economy is cooperatively managed. (Again, more complicated really.) But there's nothing wrong with Socialism. It's a bad word in America, for historical…

> A Basic Income policy is totally Socialism, which is a system in which the economy is cooperatively managed.

Disagree. Provision of money and "co-operative management" are two separate concepts. You can do either, both, or none.

Re: A nation of slaves

#167

Post by pdonis » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 6:26 PM UTC

mitochondrion wrote: post #165

pdonis wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aristotle also has stated that More than 3 hours work per day, equals slavery Yes, and he was perfectly happy to live comfortably by making use of the products of slaves' work. and I'm pretty sure Socrates would have argued that If you don't want to work you should not be working. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't, since he, like Aristotle, was perfectly happy to live comfortably by making use of the products of slaves' wo…

If Zeus himself descends from Mount Olympus and says to you, "I am going to reestablish slavery in society. I will select slaves by lottery, and when it's all over most of the population will be held in the bonds of slavery. No one will remember a time before slavery. It will be as though it has always existed. I will never let slavery be abolished again. I give you, and you alone, the choice to be free or enslaved."…

What does this have to do with anything? I could answer the question as you ask it (of course I would choose to be free), but I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion, because in the real world, slavery is not dictated by Zeus, it is enforced by some humans on other humans.

Re: A nation of slaves

#168

Post by doktrin » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 6:30 PM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #146

socalnate1 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_law , "work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion." I don't think most people make the conscious choice to drag out their work, it just happens naturally as our work expands to fill the time we've committed to being in the office.

The book Peopleware condemns Parkinsons Law as unproven. The problem with Parkinson's Law is that management also knows it, so they think they can constrict their deadlines a lot and the work will get done, and if its not, they can pressure you to work extra hours to do it.

> The book Peopleware condemns Parkinsons Law as unproven.

They condemned a humorous tongue-in-cheek adage as being unproven? Talk about going after the lowest hanging fruit.

Re: A nation of slaves

#169

Post by mitochondrion » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 6:31 PM UTC

Dewie wrote: post #123

Killah911 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life is meaningless to you... That's a whole another can of worms but a very interesting one nevertheless. While watching a documentary recently, I realized that my existential angst wasn't nearly as pronounced or debilitating when I was struggling to live day to day. Work sucked, really sucked, to the point that some days I'd almost wish I'd rather fallen gravely ill or died rather than go to work. But that was only…

> Life is meaningless to you... That's a whole another can of worms but a very interesting one nevertheless. Can of worms ? You seem to imply that I find it depressing, while really it's quite the opposite. Spare me your projections.

Even the word life can be interpreted any number of ways. To address either your point or his would require a whole lot of keyboard pounding before any meaningful conversation could be made.

Re: A nation of slaves

#170

Post by tunap » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 6:40 PM UTC

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #153

tunap wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would that work from a free market standpoint? What I mean is, when everyone has a baseline amount of money, the relative scarcity is diminished and the market prices will inflate as the value of money(real & perceived) decreases. I cannot recall the historical character at the moment, but I recall reading of a benevolent king(central or south american?) who give all his subjects generous amounts of gold to the e…

>What I mean is, when everyone has a baseline amount of money, the relative scarcity is diminished and the market prices will inflate as the value of money(real & perceived) decreases. "Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon"?

I had to Goog it, but I guess you're questioning whether I refer to... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monetarism

I guess so, I am not an economist. That seems to be the cycle repeated since the dawn of human interactions, however. With scarcity comes demand, market sets price... and the rest of the spiel. A game that has been gamed long before we came along, but yeah, that seems to be how it works historically.