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A nation of slaves

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Re: A nation of slaves

#91

funny i was talking about something similar with a friend last night. think about this: in a lot of professions it's common to study about up to 10 years before you start working. that's after 12-13 years of school(unless you're a professional athlete) you study for a quarter century. think about it. a quarter of a century. that's the height of your youth. then you're allowed to work for 40 years so you can "enjoy" y…

in a lot of professions it's common to study about up to 10 years before you start working. that's after 12-13 years of school(unless you're a professional athlete Give three examples. Just graduated doctors get paid while they're doing further study and specialisation, ditto for lawyers and doctoral students mostly get paid, albeit very badly.

My wife spent 8 unpaid years in education (4 years first degree, 2 year LLB, 1 year mandatory post-grad, 1 year devilling to be an Advocate) - with a 2 year trainee period before the devilling.

That was 8 years unpaid, 2 years low pay.

Re: A nation of slaves

#92
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these bullshit jobs? If cutting them has no effect then there is a profit to be had.

I see you've never worked in a large organization... ;-) Bullshit jobs are largely jobs that managers create and defend in order to expand their managerial fiefdoms. A manager's influence in an organization comes partially from how many people report to him or her. That's the incentive structure that creates many of the bullshit jobs. There are also interpersonal issues in play. For instance, you or I might walk into…

Like it or not, money is the best way to determine whether such a job is "bullshit" or not. Limited resources are allocated, on the whole, where those controlling those financial resources see the best productivity as measured by profitability. You may not grasp why a job is worth paying for, but you're not the one putting the money up for it. If a manager grows his fiefdom but his managers don't see fitting payoff, he'll find himself no longer a manager and his fiefdom dismantled.

It's not perfect, but it's way better than any other system.

Re: A nation of slaves

#93

This looks like a lot of words to disguise the fact it's neo-luddism. With technological progress worker roles are eliminated, but the idea is that the market has demand for new currently non-existent things and as the progress enables those things to come into existence creating new jobs as it goes. The much larger problem is people are genuinely getting conditioned to receiving a lot for nothing, and this has disto…

> With technological progress worker roles are eliminated, but the idea is that the market has demand for new currently non-existent things and as the progress enables those things to come into existence creating new jobs as it goes.

The author is arguing that this isn't always the case. You can't take it as an axiom that the market will always have need for employing everyone.

For example, as automation becomes more sophisticated, the intelligence needed to use or modulate that automation may increase. As that base requirement rises, more people may become structurally unemployable. In the limit, if there is little that humans can do better than computers, there is little need to employ many humans.

Re: A nation of slaves

#94

One of the biggest views I see in my parents and grandparents: work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure. This is really hard to respond to, especially with people who have spent 50 years working with this mindset, because they feel "invalidated" or "worthless" if their life's worth isn't measured by their work output. I don't think that's necessarily a…

An additional negative aspect of this mentality is that effort, rather than value, is praised. Working hard should never be a goal. It should be a means to a goal.

Well if your grandparents hadn't worked their asses off, you would live in a very different world right now. It's easy to say now that you are in a comfortable place where you can afford everything for almost nothing, but it was a very different world back then. Let's not forget that. And even now, you can afford things because people in China and other countries are working their asses off to make cheap stuff for developed countries. You don't get a first world country economy without hard work somewhere by someone.

Re: A nation of slaves

#95
post #84

This article is predicated on the idea that, because we're more efficient today than 1930, we should be able to work less and live the same lifestyle. Well, in fact, we can. But you can't ignore those last three words: you have to live the same lifestyle as a typical 1930s person. * No internet. * No TV. * No air conditioning. * No cell phone. * No car. * Bunk beds for your kids. * One bathroom for the whole house. *…

What? That's quite silly.

On the internet/TV for example, you are failing to take into account the spread of tech and efficiency. We can have factories produce TVs automatically, and internet infrastructure doesn't require a huge number of people to keep it running--and most of them, I wager, would be happy to keep doing what they're doing, because it's fun.

As for fancy restaurants or organic groceries...that's just a function of cooking something well and having something to cook. If you're not working all the time, you are more likely to be able to help in your community garden.

I'm sorry, but your assertion isn't borne out by thought.

Re: A nation of slaves

#96
post #17

An unconditional basic income[1] would speed up a paradigm shift from the current "work or starve" society. Maybe our grandchildren will look back to this time and make funny jokes about digging and filling holes... [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

Basic income mean huge changes: For example, salary may still be partially driven by necessary education / experience, but physical, tiresome or stressfull works would requireask for way higher salaries (because you get up at 4AM to collect garbage when you have no other choice, or when you think it really is worth it, and those jobs would still be necessary) The same way, some companies will have huge problems filli…

Have you seen the improvements to garbage collection? A giant mechanical arm grabs a specially designed trash bin and tips it into the open top. The garbage man doesn't even need to get close to the bin. Hell, he barely has to get out of the heated truck (in northern Canada). The abundance of cheap labour just delays the implementation of "leisure-efficient" technology.

Here's a video of the truck in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GprMe6A5DR8

Re: A nation of slaves

#97
post #42
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure Regardless of age, I guess most people feel this way (not just the previous generations - even the people in their 20's and 30's today). What is the alternative to this? If not work - what is important? what makes one person a success and another a failure, and what gives purpose and dignity to life, in your opi…

Family? At least that's what all those disgruntled workers keep saying. :P Life is meaningless. People just tend to disagree at what existential level it begins to become meaningless. But right now is not meaningless - we can choose to enjoy it. Whether that is by telling ourselves that we have a purpose and acting upon it, or by playing amateur tennis - what's the difference? In the grand scheme of things. Doctors h…

Life is meaningless to you... That's a whole another can of worms but a very interesting one nevertheless.

While watching a documentary recently, I realized that my existential angst wasn't nearly as pronounced or debilitating when I was struggling to live day to day. Work sucked, really sucked, to the point that some days I'd almost wish I'd rather fallen gravely ill or died rather than go to work. But that was only some days. Harsh world, you do what you have to do mindset.

One of the hardest adjustments to not necessarily having to work has been having to figure out the "why" and other existential angst. Yes, religion is a quick fix, but given enough free time, even that luxury may go away as one gets disillusioned with all the BS that goes with organized religion.

The author of the article presents a very interesting conundrum indeed. As things get more efficient, there is more free time, more wealth to go around more "leisure" potential than ever before. But on a grander scale is that necessarily a good thing? Apparently some Chinese bureaucrat back in the old day actively decided against industrialization since people wouldn't have work to do. A modernist world clearly dehumanizes people, that's just an artifact of the system. Perhaps a world where labor is cheap and more and more people work helps maintain order and may somehow be more conducive to human happiness as opposed to lots of free time to realize that the system is crap and have war and chaos. (Yes, I know this is a bit hyperbolic).

Personally, I'm really happy to not have to work crazy hours to be able to eat. I appreciate it. But I do see a lot of friends trying to come to terms with finding meaning in their lives, and not always with great results (had the unfortunate task to having to prepare a funeral for one in January). A very thought provoking article and certainly an insightful comment (though I am bit of wary of outright declarations of life's meaning or lack thereof)

Re: A nation of slaves

#98
post #17

An unconditional basic income[1] would speed up a paradigm shift from the current "work or starve" society. Maybe our grandchildren will look back to this time and make funny jokes about digging and filling holes... [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

Basic income mean huge changes: For example, salary may still be partially driven by necessary education / experience, but physical, tiresome or stressfull works would requireask for way higher salaries (because you get up at 4AM to collect garbage when you have no other choice, or when you think it really is worth it, and those jobs would still be necessary) The same way, some companies will have huge problems filli…

"Basic income mean huge changes"

I have to admit this alone is enough to give me pause. The logic goes something like: "Our current social system has produced astonishing wealth. We can therefore take this to change our current social system and distribute the wealth more widely. Hooray, we fixed things!"

But this amounts to a rewriting of the social system. We have no guarantees that the next social system will produce the same amounts of wealth. This is a silent assumption that most advocates seem to make, and it is completely unjustified. Despite the vigorous handwaving, it doesn't take much Econ 101 to guess there's a darned good chance it will produce less. But, if it produces less, now we're distributing less wealth. Whatever social effects may occur when that happens, it's pretty unlikely that they're going to be happy puppies and rainbows.

If one could assume a steady-state and that the effects of the first year will be the only effects ever, it's all fun and games. But the second and third order effects seem unlikely to produce a happy society, or even necessarily one that is still generating wealth at anything like our current pace.

The most popular handwave seems to be "Well, we can just pay people more to do the things we need done... and look, now they're getting paid more to do these things, so it's a win! Hooray!" but, well, follow that through to its logical conclusion... a society that is paying more for its basic needs is a poorer society. Poorer in the same wealth that we're trying to redistribute. And given that the price has risen, it's also a society that is getting less of its critical needs.

Sure, the first year of basic income is fun and games. But what does the twentieth look like? Or the year that you have to claw it back because the society no longer has the wealth to provide it? What does it look like when 78% of the culture votes for a larger "basic income" every year? Basic income is probably incompatible with democracy in the long term; what are we going to do about that? Basic income, democracy, and unrestricted immigration from poorer places are definitely incompatible with each other, what are we going to do about that? (Given that we already see plenty of politicians with incentives to legalize immigrants so they can have their votes, this is a huge concern.) What does it look like when a natural disaster strikes New York and society is out billions or trillions of dollars? You have to think about more than the first year, and you have to think about what real people will do in reaction, and what real people will do in reaction to those reactions, and so on and so on. Yes, clearly, Star Trek people do great on something probably quite like Basic Income, but that doesn't prove much.

And I'm quite concerned that this is something that from a societal point of view is not something we'd ever be able to remove if it did become infeasible; I suspect that the populace would happily ride it into straight-up social collapse before giving it up. We may be disturbingly close to that scenario even before we try "basic income".

This logic goes flying out the window if we can make robots that "just work" and can provide for us... but we're not talking about waiting that long right now, are we? We may have no practical choice but to suck it up until then. (And ye gods is there probably a thin line between a robot economy smart enough to provide for us without us doing much, and a robot economy smart enough to simply dispense with us entirely.)

Re: A nation of slaves

#99
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I have with your viewpoint is that it's contrary to what we've seen empirically. Sub-cultures where people don't work, but have their basic needs met aren't exactly flourishing. Work doesn't just give people purpose and dignity, it creates essential social structure without which communities dissolve. I think it's quite possible that we could organize communities around something other than work. Colleges…

Just to hold you to task, here: what exactly constitutes "flourishing"? I'd bet you mean something other than mindless growth and expansion--just want to make sure.

What I mean to say is that if the need to produce material things vanishes, people don't replace that need by producing art and culture and placing increased emphasis on family, friends and community. By "flourishing," I don't refer to material production, but social prosperity.

Having seen both, a ghetto in a U.S. inner city is objectively much more materially prosperous, partly thanks to government support, than a village in Bangladesh, yet if you look at crime, social cohesion, family cohesion, etc, the latter is more socially prosperous.

What makes a third world village different from a first-world ghetto? It's not resources, the village has less of those. It's not education, the village has less of that. What I see is that the village has social structure. Work creates roles for people, it creates hierarchies of authority, and it binds families and the community together into a common purpose.

I don't work is the only way to create social roles, hierarchy of authority, and common purpose, but I think most proponents of basic income err critically in assuming that those things are unimportant. It's so ingrained in first world culture that all people need are resources and education that people assume that if you give those things to people you will get prosperity.

Re: A nation of slaves

#100

An unconditional basic income[1] would speed up a paradigm shift from the current "work or starve" society. Maybe our grandchildren will look back to this time and make funny jokes about digging and filling holes... [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

FYI, I created an infographic recently that teaches people all the details they need to know about basic income: http://i.imgur.com/eRuO1ix.png
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